ST1100 abs cbs 1996

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Jun 29, 2020
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45
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Serbia / Vojvodina / Backi Petrovac
Hi everyone.
I have question about breaks on ST1100 abs cbs 1996. How those should behave...
On my bike all of the calipers hold the discs slightly all the time. My previous bike was Africa Twin, and the break calipers on Africa was like that when I release the leaver or the pedal the caliper is wobbly so to speak...
On ST, I would say that caliper hold the discs slightly all the time. When I make a test, I ride some 10 km and stop without using any breaks. All the discs are warm 30 40 degree celsius when outside is cold and maybe 70 80 when outside is the warm 30 to 40 degree C....
Is it normal. Am I trying to solve the problem which should not be solved...
I have changed the calipers pistons seals and the output is the same... I understand that some lines can be corked (interrupted) but not all of them... I am little confused...
Because the brakes are working or breaking as they are digital... When I touch the lever or the pedal the breaks are working as they should.... However, when the bike is on central stand and when I try to turn rear or front wheel I feel a resistance...
For experiment, I push the calipers by hand against the disc in order to push the caliper pistons inside and the wheels are 100 % free and turn with no resistance. But if I touch or operate the breaks the wheels are turn slightly with resistance...
My idea was that they (NISIN) want to hold the brakes always warm.... Am I wrong...
Thank you in advance...
 
Hello Stan. Very slight rubbing of the pads is expected. If the wheels turn at least 1 rotation when rotated by hand, you should be ok. Another check is to see if the bike rolls freely (in both directions) on a very slight incline after hard braking.
 
However, when the bike is on central stand and when I try to turn rear or front wheel I feel a resistance...
there should be an audible sound of the brake pads lightly rubbing against the rotor, but you shouldn't feel any significant resistance to the wheel turning.

There's a secondary master cylinder on the linked brake versions that could be the cause of your resistance, the fact that you feel resistance on both wheels would suggest the SMC is not fully releasing pressure after applying the brakes. I don't own a LBS version, so I can't give more specifics, hopefully others can chime in.

Larry Igofar is the expert on this symptom for the ST1300, don't know how similar the 1100 and 1300 are in regards to the LBS system.
 
If you can push calipers to a loose position indicates all the fluid is releasing properly. If all the brake pads are free when the pistons are pushed in you don't have a problem. There have been posts of the holes in the bottom of the Master Cylinder reservoir getting blocked/restricted with crud from old brake fluid but I don't think this would apply. The Africa Twin has a different caliper set up so its not a good base line for comparison.
 
If you can push calipers to a loose position indicates all the fluid is releasing properly. If all the brake pads are free when the pistons are pushed in you don't have a problem.
If I understand his post he is able to retract the pistons manually and get the pads to stop rubbing on the rotors, but if he doesn't do that then the pads aren't retracting as far as they should simply by releasing the brake lever, and there's resistance to turning the wheel that shouldn't be there. It sounds like there's a residual pressure remaining in the system after releasing the lever, not a big pressure, but it doesn't sound normal the way he's described it.
 
Have you bled both front and rear systems? It is a slightly complex job for the ABS bikes and must be done following a list in a manual. Do you have a maintenance manual?

The brake pads will slightly touch the rotors and make a slight noise when you spin the wheel. The wheels should rotate freely.

The pistons should retracts slightly when the brakes are released. How worn out are you brake pads? As the brake pads wear, the pistons extend farther but still only retract a small distance. I would guess about .5mm or less. The pistons do not retract all the way back into the caliper.
 
If I understand his post he is able to retract the pistons manually and get the pads to stop rubbing on the rotors, but if he doesn't do that then the pads aren't retracting as far as they should simply by releasing the brake lever, and there's resistance to turning the wheel that shouldn't be there. It sounds like there's a residual pressure remaining in the system after releasing the lever, not a big pressure, but it doesn't sound normal the way he's described it.
If you believe there is "residual pressure" , I don't because the way the cup seal works in the master. But like stated if the return holes at the bottom of the reservoir are restricted might be an issue. Crack the bleeder open on the caliper in question, that will relieve all residual pressure. If it changes the rolling resistance now look at other areas. If it stays the same there is no problem. As I'm typing this another thought, a restricted brake hose. In that case if you crack the bleeder, it frees up now pump the brakes back up and crack the brake line at the master, if it doesn't free up it's a brake hose/line. If it frees up look into the master. We are trying to pin point the fluid return ability. This is how I would test an auto.
 
While slight scraping is normal - particularly if the discs have some slight surface rust on them (typical putting in the garage after a wet ride) - they should not be causing any significant resistance to the turning of the wheel.

70-80 degrees Centigrade is too hot to touch. That is way too hot, but not as hot as they might be if there was a serious build up of pressure. The pads are releasing, so although it remains a possibility, my own preference is to check out the mechanics before looking into the hydraulics. The mechanism has to work properly anyway.

The rear disc is usually warmer than the front. The exhaust pipe and lack of cold air flow sees to that. But after riding 10km without touching the brakes, then you would expect them to feel cool or cold.

The plumbing on the ST1100 ABS with combined braking system is almost identical to that of the ST1300.The brakes each have 3 piston calipers. The pad springs are a similar design.

The front lever operates the two outer pistons of the front caliper.
The rear brake pedal operates the centre piston of all three calipers front and rear.
When moving and the front brake is applied by operating the lever or the pedal, then the SMC (on the front left fork leg) operates the outer two pistons on the rear caliper. It does this by the action of the front caliper moving upwards and forwards slightly and a linkage pushing up on the SMC plunger.
In the garage, when the bike is stationary, the brake pedal will also allow fluid to pass through the SMC to the rear outer pistons, without the SMC plunger being operated.

It sounds as though your SMC is releasing the brakes, but the pads or calipers are not moving properly. This may be a oroblem with the SMC, but I would look at the caliper movements first of all.

Much of what you will read in my article on the 'pitfalls' in the ST1300 system will also apply to the 1100.

This can be found here. And some key differences are mentioned below this link.


Download the pdf file attached to post#1.

Key differences between the article for the ST1300 and your 1996 ST1100.

1) On the ST1100 that has ABS II and CBS, the SMC is behind the the left fork leg, mounted vertically (ish) behind the plastic shroud. It is not integrated into the caliper bracket like the ST1300, nor does it need to be tilted when bleeding.

The linkage to operate the SMC is a 3-holed casting looking like the ace of clubs. Two of the holes contain needle roller bearings. This casting is sandwiched between two metal plates. One hole links to the fork leg, another to the SMC plunger and the third to the brake caliper bracket. This linkage needs to be able to move freely. Because it is hidden behind the shroud it can be overlooked and become dry and rusted or filled with road crud. It stops the SMC from working properly.

I have a diagram of this assembly somewhere, I'll post it when I find it. Found it, and I've coloured it in. I like colouring in.

ST1100 SMC Diagram.jpg
The green item is the 3 hole casting - 2 needle roller bearings. The right hand side (rear) plate has two captive nuts into which the bolts screw. If you take intend to clean it up, take a photo before you take it apart. It isn't immediately obvious how it goes back together.

2) The ST1300 has a bleed valve up on the right hand side near to the proportional control valve. Roughly where your right knee is when riding. The ST1100 doesn't have this bleed valve.

Pads not releasing may be due to the calipers not sliding properly on their mounts, or by corroded pad pins. What can happen is that the pistons release the pressure on the outer brake pad, but the caliper cannot slide in order to allow the inner pad to move away from the disc surface.

Thus is how they are supposed to move:


If you have some drag on the front pads, that will cause a drag on the rear. The rear pads have white heat shields on the back of the pads. The front ones do not. If you try to put heat shields in the front (say salvaged from old rear pads), the front pads will drag until they have worn down a fair bit. Which will cause drag on the rear caliper.
Check that the correct pads are fitted front and rear (read the article) On the 1100ABS, the front and rear pads are the same size, but the differences mean that if they are inserted incorrectly, one or more of them will drag.

This and everything else in that document applies to the ST1100 - brake caliper movement, pad pins, pad retainer clips, lubrication, action of pistons, testing procedure.

It is also worth checking the installation of the front wheel. If the axle has not been inserted and secured in the proper sequence, then this can cause the left hand caliper to be slightly misplaced, which could cause the front brake to drag a little, which will operate the SMC, which will cause the rear brake to drag.

That is a quick run down of what to look for. Sorry it isn't written specifically for the 1100, but much of it still applies. I parted company with my 2000ABS model in 2008 and I haven't worked on one since. So speak up if you don't understand something - someone with an 1100 and/or a better memory will be able to put you right.

But read that article. I guarantee that there will be stuff in there that you didn't know.
 
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Hi everyone. Sorry for not answering for a while.
I have been writing the answer with additional explanations, but I haven't posted it for days so it vanished....

So, yes I'm using service manual with addendum 500 peges...
Yes, I have bleed entire system in that way that I have bleed around 500 ml from every nipple...
Before, I have assembled front left and rear calipers without dust seals (the front right is working as it should so I didn't change the seals only lube the glider pins...) , it helped a little...
Ordered a new ones, installed oil and dust seals and it is the same. Moreover rear disc is fire hot...
Interesting: in the workshop pistons pushed in side, while operating SMC manually, the rear hold and release, when operating pedal front middle work and release but the rear wheel is stuck.... (middle piston is a problem)
PS I know and understand which pistons or any other part doing what and when, I have been studying the manual / breeks for couple of weeks now.. Plus, I'm a hell good mechanic, on all my vehicles I'm doing everything... Just didn't have this kind of problem ever before...
Ond the road: pistons in, operating lever, yes front outer pistons and rear outer. Release, not completely but it should not be a problem...
So, front left middle and outer as well as rear outer releasing enough to disks be warm (semi problem) and rear middle is not releasing what so ever (problem)...
Even on the tablet outer pistons rare I can move by hand / fingers, but the middle even with air gun is a problem...
The seal channels are clean...

However, I will disassemble intire system but firstly will change ruber hoses... But will make a new rubber hoses (we have couple of small factories for that with certificate of course, in the neighbourhood)... 500 € is pretty expensive for me...
I understand that hoses after a 25 years could start to behave as a one way valve. Hart valve... But, I'm confused with that on table problem...
Everything is greased (SMC connection mechanism)...
 
Rear centre piston not releasing is an odd one, but should be an easy fix. the line goes direct from the rear master cylinder to the rear centre piston. Try pushing the piston in by hand. If it won't go, then there are 4 options

a) The piston is stuck in the bore
b) That rear hose has a blockage
c) The compensation port in the rear master is blocked. ( This would also affect the rear outers and the front centres )
d) The rear reservoir is over full.

I do not know whether the connection to the reservoir hose has installed a cylindrical filter ( like that in the SMC). If so, incorrect installation may affect the flow of fluid back to the reservoir).

And - just thought of another - the stopper isn't installed properly allowing the rear caliper bracket to rotate and affect the brake hose - dangerous situation.
 
While slight scraping is normal - particularly if the discs have some slight surface rust on them (typical putting in the garage after a wet ride) - they should not be causing any significant resistance to the turning of the wheel.

70-80 degrees Centigrade is too hot to touch. That is way too hot, but not as hot as they might be if there was a serious build up of pressure. The pads are releasing, so although it remains a possibility, my own preference is to check out the mechanics before looking into the hydraulics. The mechanism has to work properly anyway.

The rear disc is usually warmer than the front. The exhaust pipe and lack of cold air flow sees to that. But after riding 10km without touching the brakes, then you would expect them to feel cool or cold.

The plumbing on the ST1100 ABS with combined braking system is almost identical to that of the ST1300.The brakes each have 3 piston calipers. The pad springs are a similar design.

The front lever operates the two outer pistons of the front caliper.
The rear brake pedal operates the centre piston of all three calipers front and rear.
When moving and the front brake is applied by operating the lever or the pedal, then the SMC (on the front left fork leg) operates the outer two pistons on the rear caliper. It does this by the action of the front caliper moving upwards and forwards slightly and a linkage pushing up on the SMC plunger.
In the garage, when the bike is stationary, the brake pedal will also allow fluid to pass through the SMC to the rear outer pistons, without the SMC plunger being operated.

It sounds as though your SMC is releasing the brakes, but the pads or calipers are not moving properly. This may be a oroblem with the SMC, but I would look at the caliper movements first of all.

Much of what you will read in my article on the 'pitfalls' in the ST1300 system will also apply to the 1100.

This can be found here. And some key differences are mentioned below this link.


Download the pdf file attached to post#1.

Key differences between the article for the ST1300 and your 1996 ST1100.

1) On the ST1100 that has ABS II and CBS, the SMC is behind the the left fork leg, mounted vertically (ish) behind the plastic shroud. It is not integrated into the caliper bracket like the ST1300, nor does it need to be tilted when bleeding.

The linkage to operate the SMC is a 3-holed casting looking like the ace of clubs. Two of the holes contain needle roller bearings. This casting is sandwiched between two metal plates. One hole links to the fork leg, another to the SMC plunger and the third to the brake caliper bracket. This linkage needs to be able to move freely. Because it is hidden behind the shroud it can be overlooked and become dry and rusted or filled with road crud. It stops the SMC from working properly.

I have a diagram of this assembly somewhere, I'll post it when I find it. Found it, and I've coloured it in. I like colouring in.

ST1100 SMC Diagram.jpg
The green item is the 3 hole casting - 2 needle roller bearings. The right hand side (rear) plate has two captive nuts into which the bolts screw. If you take intend to clean it up, take a photo before you take it apart. It isn't immediately obvious how it goes back together.

2) The ST1300 has a bleed valve up on the right hand side near to the proportional control valve. Roughly where your right knee is when riding. The ST1100 doesn't have this bleed valve.

Pads not releasing may be due to the calipers not sliding properly on their mounts, or by corroded pad pins. What can happen is that the pistons release the pressure on the outer brake pad, but the caliper cannot slide in order to allow the inner pad to move away from the disc surface.

Thus is how they are supposed to move:


If you have some drag on the front pads, that will cause a drag on the rear. The rear pads have white heat shields on the back of the pads. The front ones do not. If you try to put heat shields in the front (say salvaged from old rear pads), the front pads will drag until they have worn down a fair bit. Which will cause drag on the rear caliper.
Check that the correct pads are fitted front and rear (read the article) On the 1100ABS, the front and rear pads are the same size, but the differences mean that if they are inserted incorrectly, one or more of them will drag.

This and everything else in that document applies to the ST1100 - brake caliper movement, pad pins, pad retainer clips, lubrication, action of pistons, testing procedure.

It is also worth checking the installation of the front wheel. If the axle has not been inserted and secured in the proper sequence, then this can cause the left hand caliper to be slightly misplaced, which could cause the front brake to drag a little, which will operate the SMC, which will cause the rear brake to drag.

That is a quick run down of what to look for. Sorry it isn't written specifically for the 1100, but much of it still applies. I parted company with my 2000ABS model in 2008 and I haven't worked on one since. So speak up if you don't understand something - someone with an 1100 and/or a better memory will be able to put you right.

But read that article. I guarantee that there will be stuff in there that you didn't know.
There was a lot of good information here that I need to look at in connection with the brakes on my -99 ST1100 ABS-II, thanks :thumb:

The rear brake pads are very good and do not need to be replaced, the wheel rotates freely and there is no hint of dragging after using the handbrake and footbrake.

I have installed new front brake pads with copper paste on the rear of the brake pads, easy disassembly and assembly without problems where everything is seated correctly on both sides. The brake pads are pressed against the brake discs again where everything is normal. Preparing to change all brake fluid and have emptied the brake fluid reservoir front and rear so they are clean and nice with new brake fluid added. I have not started changing the brake fluid in the system yet...

Discovered that the brake caliper on one side in front drags so there is more resistance in the brakes compared to what is normal when I push the motorcycle on the garage floor. When removing the old brake pads, an inner brake pad was more worn compared to the brake pad on the piston side and the other side.

I have pushed the front brake pads back a little twice now to see if the wheel rotates freely but also to see which side is dragging. I have not ridden the bike since changing the brake pads. I am considering replacing the brake fluid in the entire system first, if that doesn't help I will clean around the pistons on the brake calipers that are dragging.

The brakes were perfectly fine after several tests and a 250 kilometer drive, no dragging before I changed the front brake pads.

Anyone with other solutions ...
 
When removing the old brake pads, an inner brake pad was more worn compared to the brake pad on the piston side and the other side.
Would indicate stuck float pins, obstructing the caliper from centering on the rotors...
Remove, inspect, clean, replace the rubber guides if worn, lubricate with rubber compatible grease...
 
Discovered that the brake caliper on one side in front drags so there is more resistance in the brakes compared to what is normal when I push the motorcycle on the garage floor. When removing the old brake pads, an inner brake pad was more worn compared to the brake pad on the piston side and the other side.
That suggests to me that the caliper is not moving freely on its slider pins.

There is one slider pin on the caliper. Another slider pin on the caliper bracket. Both pins mate up with a hole which has a rubber boot. The sliders should be a shiny chrome and have a slight smear of silicone or rubber grease. (Too much grease and air pressure will prevent them from moving). To clean, you have to separate the caliper from the caliper bracket. I cannot remember whether that is possible on the ST1100 ABS without removing one of the banjo bolts. You shuould not attempt to unscrew the slider pin itself.

Another possibility is that the pad pin is ridged or corroded which may prevent the pads from moving away from the disk and therefore the caliper from moving to relaease the inner pad.

Yet another - the rear pads have a white heat shield between the pad backing plate and the chrome anti-squeal plate (with holes). The front pads do not need this, and if you put an old one in with new pads, the front pads will bind until the pads have worn down. (Not likely to be this since the pads are worn).

The front and rear pads have a chrome retaining clip. It sits in a recess on the caliper bracket and the tab end of the pad backing plate (opposite end from the hole for the pad pin) sits snugly in that recess. The retaining slip is the same size front and rear - but the rear clip has a ridge in it. They should be glued in place according to the manual, but often they are not. They have a tendency to fall out after a few years. If the rear clip has been placed in one of the front calipers, that that will make the pads a very tight fit and they will not be able to move away fromt he disc surface when the brake lever/pedal is released.

But the other possibility is the incorrect installation of the pad spring in the roof of the caliper. The spring is H shaped and has a braod strip which should be fitted closest to the pistons. The narrow strip has two tags which protrude upward slightly. Their job is to keep the inner pad backing plate from wandering towards the disc. If the pad has been inserted so that it is on top of or in front of that tag, then that affects the ability of the caliper to move when the brake pressure is released. I have seen pad springs where this has happened and the tag has been squashed through 90 degrees so that it is flat agianst the spring.

Pictures of all of these things are in the Avoiding the pItfalls pdf article that I linked to above. The images are of the back brake / caliper / bracket. But the front caliper is a very similar design and the same logic applies. I'll paste some here, for quick reference - but read the text in the pdf.

Nb air in the brake lines will not cause brakes to drag. Too much fluid in the reservoir (ie brim full), or clogged recuperation port in the bottom of the reservoir might though.

P1020413.jpgP1020427.jpgP1020435.jpgST1300 Rear Pad Spring.jpgFront Retainer clip.jpgRear Retainer clip.jpg

Finally - something that is not brake related
The front wheel may not be installed correctly. You don't say which side front brake is dragging.

The front axle has a shoulder at the clutch lever side. When the axle is inserted, and the bolt is tightened that shoulder is pulled across towards the tightening bolt, and it clamps together (from the left, clutch lever side) the speedo drive, the left bearing inner shell, the spacer tube inside the hub, the right wheel bearing inner shell, the small spacer, the right fork leg. There is a thin speedo drive plate in there as well.

Notice that it doesn't clamp the right fork leg. So the posiiton of the left caliper is dependent on the correct insatllation of the fron wheel. The Fork pinch bolts should be slack when tightening the axle - old the left hand end with a bar through the hole. Once the caliper clearance to the brake disc has been checked, then the axle pinch bolts can be tightened.

If the pinch bolts were tightened before the axle bolt has been torqued, then it is possible that the left caliper bracket and left fork leg are slightly out of place - which will cause brake drag.
 
Had planned to loosen the brake calipers on both sides along with checking the float pins but it looks like the brake calipers are sitting on rubber bushings... I may have to dismantle the front fender to get to the float pins … Thanks for the tips I'll start on Tuesday :thumb:
 
That suggests to me that the caliper is not moving freely on its slider pins.

There is one slider pin on the caliper. Another slider pin on the caliper bracket. Both pins mate up with a hole which has a rubber boot. The sliders should be a shiny chrome and have a slight smear of silicone or rubber grease. (Too much grease and air pressure will prevent them from moving). To clean, you have to separate the caliper from the caliper bracket. I cannot remember whether that is possible on the ST1100 ABS without removing one of the banjo bolts. You shuould not attempt to unscrew the slider pin itself.

Another possibility is that the pad pin is ridged or corroded which may prevent the pads from moving away from the disk and therefore the caliper from moving to relaease the inner pad.

Yet another - the rear pads have a white heat shield between the pad backing plate and the chrome anti-squeal plate (with holes). The front pads do not need this, and if you put an old one in with new pads, the front pads will bind until the pads have worn down. (Not likely to be this since the pads are worn).

The front and rear pads have a chrome retaining clip. It sits in a recess on the caliper bracket and the tab end of the pad backing plate (opposite end from the hole for the pad pin) sits snugly in that recess. The retaining slip is the same size front and rear - but the rear clip has a ridge in it. They should be glued in place according to the manual, but often they are not. They have a tendency to fall out after a few years. If the rear clip has been placed in one of the front calipers, that that will make the pads a very tight fit and they will not be able to move away fromt he disc surface when the brake lever/pedal is released.

But the other possibility is the incorrect installation of the pad spring in the roof of the caliper. The spring is H shaped and has a braod strip which should be fitted closest to the pistons. The narrow strip has two tags which protrude upward slightly. Their job is to keep the inner pad backing plate from wandering towards the disc. If the pad has been inserted so that it is on top of or in front of that tag, then that affects the ability of the caliper to move when the brake pressure is released. I have seen pad springs where this has happened and the tag has been squashed through 90 degrees so that it is flat agianst the spring.

Pictures of all of these things are in the Avoiding the pItfalls pdf article that I linked to above. The images are of the back brake / caliper / bracket. But the front caliper is a very similar design and the same logic applies. I'll paste some here, for quick reference - but read the text in the pdf.

Nb air in the brake lines will not cause brakes to drag. Too much fluid in the reservoir (ie brim full), or clogged recuperation port in the bottom of the reservoir might though.

P1020413.jpgP1020427.jpgP1020435.jpgST1300 Rear Pad Spring.jpgFront Retainer clip.jpgRear Retainer clip.jpg

Finally - something that is not brake related
The front wheel may not be installed correctly. You don't say which side front brake is dragging.

The front axle has a shoulder at the clutch lever side. When the axle is inserted, and the bolt is tightened that shoulder is pulled across towards the tightening bolt, and it clamps together (from the left, clutch lever side) the speedo drive, the left bearing inner shell, the spacer tube inside the hub, the right wheel bearing inner shell, the small spacer, the right fork leg. There is a thin speedo drive plate in there as well.

Notice that it doesn't clamp the right fork leg. So the posiiton of the left caliper is dependent on the correct insatllation of the fron wheel. The Fork pinch bolts should be slack when tightening the axle - old the left hand end with a bar through the hole. Once the caliper clearance to the brake disc has been checked, then the axle pinch bolts can be tightened.

If the pinch bolts were tightened before the axle bolt has been torqued, then it is possible that the left caliper bracket and left fork leg are slightly out of place - which will cause brake drag.
Thanks, I'll take this info with me until Tuesday.
 
Going to check the front wheel bolt... It was the left inner brake pad which was very worn compared to the others which were very good.
 
Going to check the front wheel bolt... It was the left inner brake pad which was very worn compared to the others which were very good.
John Heath gave most of the things you need to look at.
I would give one more, if you pushed the pistons in without cleaning them first you likely introduced dirt into the surface between the piston and the square rubber rings. I would disassemble the calipers, clean around the rubber ring and polish the pistons.
 
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