I disagree, Andrew. While driving around town, I slow down only a little if I see a landscaper's truck and trailer, but I slow down a lot whenever a dayglow green shirt appears near a parked truck/trailer/utility vehicle. Those green shirts stand out like nothing else - especially if they are clean.
The Science Of Being Seen...
- Thread starter ST1100Y
- Start date
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
At the end of the day as riders, we have to assume that they will not/do not see us and ride accordingly.
Whether lack of 'vision' is intentional or unintentional, the consequences of the collision is the same for the motorcyclist.
Cars/trucks always have the 'right of weight' whether they are right or wrong.
I like to plan for the worst and hope for the best - that way I am not disappointed or surprised.
I expect every car at at intersection to turn in front of me, cars at side streets to pull out in front of me, cars to move over into my lane with no warning.
I'm not paranoid about it, I just understand the 'rules of engagement' as I was taught in the USMC.
No other driver/rider cares for your well-being and continued existence than you so it is up to us to protect ourselves.
My greatest concern these days is getting tagged from behind from an inattentive driver while stopped at a stop sign or a traffic light.
So I am constantly checking my rear view mirrors to see what is coming with a planned escape path.
When I come to an intersection, I look way down both ways in case there is a speeding vehicle that might or might not stop.
My standard joke is I wonder why the military is investigating invisibility gear for the troops.
Just put them all on motorcycles and the standard reply will be 'Officer, I didn't see them'.
Whether lack of 'vision' is intentional or unintentional, the consequences of the collision is the same for the motorcyclist.
Cars/trucks always have the 'right of weight' whether they are right or wrong.
I like to plan for the worst and hope for the best - that way I am not disappointed or surprised.
I expect every car at at intersection to turn in front of me, cars at side streets to pull out in front of me, cars to move over into my lane with no warning.
I'm not paranoid about it, I just understand the 'rules of engagement' as I was taught in the USMC.
No other driver/rider cares for your well-being and continued existence than you so it is up to us to protect ourselves.
My greatest concern these days is getting tagged from behind from an inattentive driver while stopped at a stop sign or a traffic light.
So I am constantly checking my rear view mirrors to see what is coming with a planned escape path.
When I come to an intersection, I look way down both ways in case there is a speeding vehicle that might or might not stop.
My standard joke is I wonder why the military is investigating invisibility gear for the troops.
Just put them all on motorcycles and the standard reply will be 'Officer, I didn't see them'.
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
If your reaction was representative of the majority, then yes they would be highly effective all the time, but I am not sure that your reaction is necessarily representative of the majority all the time. The more common this clothing becomes, the more we grow accustomed to seeing it, and the less effective it becomes. The problem of complacency rears it head.
An analogy might be daytime running lights. When they first began appearing on vehicles, they caught everyone's attention. They have been required in Canada since 1992, so they have been the norm for a long time. Now, a vehicle that is approaching that does not have any forward lights burning seems to be more noticeable, because it is different from everything else around it.
OP
OP
ST1100Y
Site Supporter
Watch for the second,third,forth deer in the convoy.
l spoke to a neighbour in spring time,asked what was new.He said he had cataracts removed from both his eyes.”You know it got so bad l could hardly see to drive”! Lot more just like him out there;maybe YOU.It creeps up on ya.
l spoke to a neighbour in spring time,asked what was new.He said he had cataracts removed from both his eyes.”You know it got so bad l could hardly see to drive”! Lot more just like him out there;maybe YOU.It creeps up on ya.
STFlips
Site Supporter
Curious as to why modulating or pulsed headlights haven't been in this discussion so far. I've heard that this type of headlight is illegal in some jurisdictions? I have seen modulating tail lights available here, so I'm wondering if any studies done on this concept, comments?
The bike itself also makes a difference. Kept my 750 Nighthawk for a while because it was so much easier to handle around town, but finally let it go after finding out how much more traffic "respect" I would get on the ST.
Lots to be learned with riding a bicycle as well, where you have to assume nobody will ever see you at all, even the ones who look like they are seing you!
Lots to be learned with riding a bicycle as well, where you have to assume nobody will ever see you at all, even the ones who look like they are seing you!
Funny you say that you get more traffic respect on the ST. my experience is about the same as my previous motorcycle none. Maybe if I painted it white and installed a set of blue and red lights I'd get that respect
There have been some studies and, long story short, they are a lot less effective than most people think. More problematic is a general belief that flashing your lights can mean, I see you, go ahead... so the car does. They did find that modulation causes aggravation in other motorists. Think about it... two lane road just busy enough that a guy behind you can't pass and he flashes his brights at you endlessly... it gets tiresome.
Beeflips
(it's me...Greg) Returning some videotapes
I tell my girlfriend that pilots WANT to land the plane, and I'm the same way on the bike. Because situations continuously change, I don't settle into one train of thought when I ride. ANYTHING can happen, a ladder falling off a truck doesn't see you, and inattentive drivers are more and more prevalent. I automatically assume that drivers almost never see me, so defensive riding is your ultimate friend, and a clear mind can't hurt either.
There is also a belief that what kind of lights you use can make a difference.
Ever looked at a bright light, look away, blink, and see a dot where the bright light was? Think of a car entering the roadway from an intersection. They look left and see a bike with some forward facing un-diffused 6500k LED lights (it would little difference in wattage, because it is the whiteness of the light that shuts down the vision in the back of the eye, but higher wattage is definetly worse). Now they look right, then back to left and they blink and see a blue or black dot where you are...
Sometimes when people say they didn't see the bike... they really didn't see the bike. If it is as easy as using lower kelvin rated lights or diffusing lenses, it would seem to be an easy fix.
I actually had to sit through a safety training class and listen to the instructor say he always runs with his brights on. Even if the car coming in the oppostie direction is flashing their lights, he liked the fact that he was so noticeable. My only thought was why you would ever want to blind an oncoming car that weighs 10 times what you are? Especially if they are signaling that they can't see? (I needed to pass, so I kept my mouth shut [rare for me])
Ever looked at a bright light, look away, blink, and see a dot where the bright light was? Think of a car entering the roadway from an intersection. They look left and see a bike with some forward facing un-diffused 6500k LED lights (it would little difference in wattage, because it is the whiteness of the light that shuts down the vision in the back of the eye, but higher wattage is definetly worse). Now they look right, then back to left and they blink and see a blue or black dot where you are...
Sometimes when people say they didn't see the bike... they really didn't see the bike. If it is as easy as using lower kelvin rated lights or diffusing lenses, it would seem to be an easy fix.
I actually had to sit through a safety training class and listen to the instructor say he always runs with his brights on. Even if the car coming in the oppostie direction is flashing their lights, he liked the fact that he was so noticeable. My only thought was why you would ever want to blind an oncoming car that weighs 10 times what you are? Especially if they are signaling that they can't see? (I needed to pass, so I kept my mouth shut [rare for me])
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Police cars, fire trucks and ambulances are becoming targets of choice around Dallas/Ft Worth. Although how you can't notice one with lights on and siren blasting, I haven't a clue. Designers are incorporating new attention-getting devices periodically....with no improvement.Funny you say that you get more traffic respect on the ST. my experience is about the same as my previous motorcycle none. Maybe if I painted it white and installed a set of blue and red lights I'd get that respect
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
I've been down this 'road' in designing business software.
I had a case years ago where under certain conditions, there would be a large flashing warning on the screen.
It advised the user that there were two choices and to be careful of which one they selected.
After a while, a user came to me and said -
"Is there any thing more you can do?"
My response -
"Well, I could make a hand come out of the computer and slap you in the face but you'd ignore that after a while."
It is virtually impossible to 'educate' specific attentiveness in the human animal, regardless of the expense and time invested.
They ain't looking for us so they don't see us.
I had a case years ago where under certain conditions, there would be a large flashing warning on the screen.
It advised the user that there were two choices and to be careful of which one they selected.
After a while, a user came to me and said -
"Is there any thing more you can do?"
My response -
"Well, I could make a hand come out of the computer and slap you in the face but you'd ignore that after a while."
It is virtually impossible to 'educate' specific attentiveness in the human animal, regardless of the expense and time invested.
They ain't looking for us so they don't see us.
STFlips
Site Supporter
Been down that road too in the heavy machinery business. Customer..after it is broken "can you make it idiot proof?" Answer "Nope, someone keeps building better idiots!"
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
I appreciate every mention of a fire truck in these discussions. It affords me the opportunity to post the below for the consideration of anyone who is under the misguided impression that hi-viz clothing is a miracle product that solves the invisibility problem for them. There isn't much more on the road that is higher in visibility than a fire truck- see below.
Mike (@970mike) was a fireman. He has shown a video of a fire truck racing to a call with the lights flashing and the siren whaling. A woman stops at a stop sign and then proceeds to pull out directly in front of the fire truck and gets broad-sided by it.
If people don't see a huge truck with all of its lights on, and with extra multiple flashing lights, and with an extremely loud siren whaling away, they won't here loud pipes.
Have a look. The crash sequence starts at the 5:00 minute mark.
Truck 1 Accident.
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I think also that it's a situation that just gets worse every year; every new vehicle seems to have a monitor in the middle of that dashboard now, and increasing power to weight ratios for all cars has made them more than many drivers can safely handle.
My basic opinion is that many people are not fit to drive, and of those that are, they're fit to drive some percentage of the time, and on their worst day, cars don't capsize; they're going anyway, they don't care.
I know I've mentioned it already but I was out at odd hours in the dark and a bit of rain on the weekend, I had a couple instances where someone was following me increasingly closer - a brief cycle of the hazards, and the driver dropped back a bit. Wouldn't rely on them, but I'm using them.
My basic opinion is that many people are not fit to drive, and of those that are, they're fit to drive some percentage of the time, and on their worst day, cars don't capsize; they're going anyway, they don't care.
I know I've mentioned it already but I was out at odd hours in the dark and a bit of rain on the weekend, I had a couple instances where someone was following me increasingly closer - a brief cycle of the hazards, and the driver
OP
OP
ST1100Y
Site Supporter
My GF reported similar amazement when changing from her naked 500cc to the NT700VA/Deauville ...
And I had the reversed experience when testing the ST1300, which seems to feature a lower "visual impression" towards car drivers then my ST1100...
How much of this is owned to the color of the fairings, the shape of the headlight and/or the running lights on my 1100 would require some research...
You also might add "deceptive security perception" due to ESP/NCAP advertisements and the vault like silence... and not to forget the omnipresent smartphone of course; it's like their oxygen supply depends on it...
during the lock-down many seem to have simply forgotten how to drive...
Worst if it rains... OMG it hasn't rained for twenty years! What shall we do now?!...
some not having owned a car for decades, decided to get one over 'fear of the plague' while using public transport...
those in the car-sharing vehicles are as well highly inexperienced/totally clue & careless, always requiring additional observation...
And a new obstacle on alpine roads: large groups of elders on e-bikes... no kidding, unpredictable like a herd of deer...
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Hi vis is just a tool among others used to increase our visibility. It isn’t fool proof or magic but when used in conjunction with auxiliary lighting, rider training, and active lane & vehicle positioning they all increase our odds of avoiding a SMIDSY incident.
To your point, people still pull out in front of fire trucks with lights and sirens on but fire departments don’t use this as a reason to paint fire trucks matt black and remove all emergency lights.
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
No suggestion that its use is of no value was made.
The suggestion is that over reliance on hi-viz in the belief that one is safe because of its use is a false security blanket.