Yup... assume they are all out to kill you.
Are We Invisible?
- Thread starter Andrew Shadow
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Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
Many days you don't even have to assume it ...
ST Gui
240Robert
Which really is the point of this thread. Initially. If someone isn't looking their eyes and brain won't see it.
There was a thread here quite awhile back about looking and not seeing what should have been seen. Someone opined that this could be an 'excuse' for causing an accident. I don't know that it was something like John Heath's post of motion induced blindness. The demo makes it clear though I don't know what a practical scenario would be.
I've run into (figuratively speaking) a few drivers who've objected to my splitting lanes. Yes even in sunny CA where it's been a way of riding like forever and a day. Fortunately I've never been targeted by an addle-pated driver for any other reason. But that was more then enough to remind be of the God-given right some have to control my experience on the road.
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[edited] I just don't know how to react to your contention that it's your right somehow to split lanes other than to quite honestly laugh out loud. Let's just be clear, if everybody else just remains not even just within their lane, but maintains a predictable and gradual change within them, you can just do what ever you want. Sort of like the world is just gonna stand still, for you. Because, I dunno, I guess I still don't quite get it, because, you're you.
Anyway, FAT,, while, I'm sure it's great being you with all of your lane playing games and whatever, there remains the rights of the rest of planet earthlings.
My point is thus, if you've been manouvering around other moving bodies and getting away with it, good on you, but other people have the same ideas and impulses as well.
[added] my use of "you" looks like I'm referencing someone in particular which I'm not, I'm referring to riders I've encountered that are just too careless.
I don't do any commuting on a bike and driving in heavy traffic I'd do the same to some extent no big deal but some guys are relative speed way too fast to be seen coming.
I consider my riding skills to be below average on the basis of not having probably anywhere near as many hours as most here. But I do consider my situational awareness to be above average on the basis of the proportion of other riders I observe that don't move their head. Still, like everyone I've had other riders pass me in circumstances where they've approached at relatively higher speeds and had I moved one way or another within my lane there would have been a collision. Lesson taken from that is of course ride in as predictable manner as possible signal early look around and so on.
Anyway, FAT,, while, I'm sure it's great being you with all of your lane playing games and whatever, there remains the rights of the rest of planet earthlings.
My point is thus, if you've been manouvering around other moving bodies and getting away with it, good on you, but other people have the same ideas and impulses as well.
[added] my use of "you" looks like I'm referencing someone in particular which I'm not, I'm referring to riders I've encountered that are just too careless.
I don't do any commuting on a bike and driving in heavy traffic I'd do the same to some extent no big deal but some guys are relative speed way too fast to be seen coming.
I consider my riding skills to be below average on the basis of not having probably anywhere near as many hours as most here. But I do consider my situational awareness to be above average on the basis of the proportion of other riders I observe that don't move their head. Still, like everyone I've had other riders pass me in circumstances where they've approached at relatively higher speeds and had I moved one way or another within my lane there would have been a collision. Lesson taken from that is of course ride in as predictable manner as possible signal early look around and so on.
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ST Gui
240Robert
With all due respect to the august members of this forum the "they're out to kill you" is so much BS meant to portray the rider as a fearless individual daily braving craven motorists on the hunt to extinguish the life of a rider.
This is not to say it hasn't happened where a rider minding their own business riding legally with no extraordinary antics is run/gunned down solely because they're on a bike. I'm sure it's happened and more than once. But "a thing"? Really. I think we'd have a lot more evidence of it occurring.
I think branding every driver out there as being out to kill you is ridiculous. I say the same for instilling the mind set of "like they're out to kill you" is equally ridiculous. Facts not in evidence until that rare anomaly actually happens. This is separate from road rage where a driver is feels he/she has somehow been wronged or actually wronged and now seeks to exact their perverted idea of street justice.
Realistically if a car driver wants to take out a rider it'd be pretty easy unless they messed up the opportunity and the rider is skilled enough to evade.
Riding like you're invisible absolutely makes good sense and is a good second nature to develop. No need to approach a situation as adversarial when it's not. In my limited decades of experience the more accomplished the rider the few war stories of how "they tried to kill me" there are. But everybody's personal philosophy is just that.
This is not to say it hasn't happened where a rider minding their own business riding legally with no extraordinary antics is run/gunned down solely because they're on a bike. I'm sure it's happened and more than once. But "a thing"? Really. I think we'd have a lot more evidence of it occurring.
I think branding every driver out there as being out to kill you is ridiculous. I say the same for instilling the mind set of "like they're out to kill you" is equally ridiculous. Facts not in evidence until that rare anomaly actually happens. This is separate from road rage where a driver is feels he/she has somehow been wronged or actually wronged and now seeks to exact their perverted idea of street justice.
Realistically if a car driver wants to take out a rider it'd be pretty easy unless they messed up the opportunity and the rider is skilled enough to evade.
Riding like you're invisible absolutely makes good sense and is a good second nature to develop. No need to approach a situation as adversarial when it's not. In my limited decades of experience the more accomplished the rider the few war stories of how "they tried to kill me" there are. But everybody's personal philosophy is just that.
ST Gui
240Robert
If you're addressing my post (which you haven't made clear) let me be clear. Before you call me out know — what you're talking about. I never made any contention that I have a right to split lanes. Reread my post. I'll wait. OK caught up yet? Nor was there any indication I'm moving around playing games etc because I don't. Not only are you assuming facts not in evidence you're apparently making up alternative facts. SHM.
I'm sure you must feel great making up crap with which to accuse people so you be you. Way to conduct a discussion.
A couple of states have made it legal to split lanes so riders do have a right. It's been a fact of life in other countries for years. Same with CA where there has been tacit approval for lane splitting when done in a safe manner for years. BTW cars and other vehicles are obligated to obey the CVC so if I'm not impinging on their safety (and I don't) and they obey the rules (which most do) then there is no problem.
You have a nice day and rest of the evening. Oh and like I (and others) said — ride like you're invisible.
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no I'm not speaking to your post in particular and I hope you understand that my position is not a slight toward you for using your words [if I did] just the mindset in general; the road, highway, byway, freeway superspeedway that we drive along is a shared and substantially equally invested upon [via taxes] a privaledge we all enjoy, whether you're driving your kids to soccer or going for groceries or to church in your old age, these highways are for all of our enjoyment and It's my responsibility [just like everyone else] to ensure that everyone that gets on the road enjoys the same expectation of freedom and safety that I do.
But.. when they go to bed... I wanna grind some tires... and maybe some brakes.
But.. when they go to bed... I wanna grind some tires... and maybe some brakes.
My 7th grade science teacher had served in WWII. I picked up a Popular Mechanics? magazine that showed flying cars on the cover, the main focus was a mother taking off from the backyard and flying her kids to school. Boxy/Jetson's looking vtol flying cars littered the skies in the background. I asked Mr Nelson about the feasibility of such. He conceded such was possible but still a long way off. My last question concerned the orderliness of the flying cars in the background, I knew full well the requirements of then-current flight training and this all didn't feel quite 'right' to me. He closed with a statement that has always stuck with me...... 'some people make good fighter pilots, the rest are just smoking holes in the ground'. (think I've mentioned that before, sorry if I have). That comment still seems to be appropriate given our collective driving outcomes.That will never happen as long as most folks think that driving is a 'right' and not a 'privilege'.
ST1100Y
Site Supporter
Well, there various "levels" so to say...
You'll receive dumb gestures, being generalized as "organ donator", obscene verbal outbreaks...
You will find half empty McDonald's cups, soda bottles, soda cans, banana peels, half gnawed apples/pears, lit cigarette buts... up to filled garbage/fast-food bags being thrown at you out open car windows while on the move...
it hits the peak when they actively try to run you over, cut your lane at very close distance, brake-check you, etc...
Then the hit and run cases, tipping over motorcycles in parking lots, the manual vandalization where lit cig buts get thrown into your instrument cluster, on the seat, bikes get kicked over, jumped and trampled on...
See "a thing" there?...pfffff... nah...
Behave like a rabbit, quick, highly maneuverable, always have an escape route... never allow yourself to get provoked and never bring yourself into a situation you don't control to 101%...
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
There are two particularly type of drivers that can hurt/kill you -
1. The ones that are just not paying attention.
2. The ones that are malicious and for whatever reason they hate motorcyclists and want to harm them.
I have run into many of both 'types' over the years and the numbers of both seem to be increasing.
At the end of the day the end result can be the same with either of them.
1. The ones that are just not paying attention.
2. The ones that are malicious and for whatever reason they hate motorcyclists and want to harm them.
I have run into many of both 'types' over the years and the numbers of both seem to be increasing.
At the end of the day the end result can be the same with either of them.
OP
OP
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
I think that you are being to literal. I think that most people would see it as an expression that warns of the need to be aware and always vigilant much the same as ride like your invisible conveys.
Speaking of taking things literally, I always found the use of have a right often to be a strange choice of words. Anything that can be taken away seems more like it is a privilege.
As a bicyclist, I've seen several who fit #2.
As a motorcyclist, I've seen many more of the #1 and none that I can think of like #2. And one of the most egregious causes of inattention is motorists on their freakin' phones.
ST Gui
240Robert
I could be but over all I'm not. It's much but not the same. I've actually heard people espouse this as though they're preaching from the pulpit. I've expressed the same sentiment as I stated earlier and it was obvious they bought into a myth. So maybe it's just hyperbole expressed here. Maybe. I think it's a pejorative expression that has in my experience send the wrong message. Or sends the right message with the wrong attitude. Ride like you're invisible is superior in every way IMNSHO.
I don't see that at all unless you redefine the right and privilege. I find there is distinction between having a right vs a privilege and that they are by definition different. It could be seen as a philosophical debate but that means not taking the two words literally.
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
I have experienced #2 several times - including from semi-drivers where one purposely swerved coming from the opposite direction to run me off the road.
Coming back from Moonshine, two riders behind me had to dive off onto the interstate shoulder as a semi tried to take them out.
Then he tried to side-swipe me as he went by.
If I hadn't moved over the least bit as he passed, I would have been under his wheels and dead.
Recently I had a pickup truck driver that got mad because I passed him (him doing 10 under in the left lane) and I did not pass him rudely or closely.
He gave chase and tried to hit me from behind until I got away from him.
When I got held up in multi-lane traffic a little later, he tried to side-swipe me when he went by.
Fortunately I had a camera around my neck and when I started taking pictures he fled the scene.
I had one motorist chase me across Nashville on the slab because I passed him - again not rudely or closely.
I was finally able to get away from him safely.
I don't give drivers the one finger salute or do I tailgate, flash my lights or do other rude behavior when I am riding.
But there are just some people out there that do really hate motorcycles and those that ride them and will do harm if they can.
I find it much safer to ride my motorcycle, than my Subaru Outback. With the motorcycle, I get the feeling the drivers around me feel like I'm going to crash at any moment, so they give me a lot of space. With my car, it is like I'm just another pylon on their racetrack.
Lane positioning is essential. It's being "assertive", not "aggressive". This is "my space" -- and it isn't open for both of us to occupy at the same time. It is making myself visible, not hiding on the side because I'm afraid someone will hit me.
The last time I had someone pull out in front of me was when I bought the black XR. It was in a Costco parking lot. Narrow bike. One headlight lit up. I didn't show up...so I changed that. Since then, nothing. Before then...I can't remember.
Wait...I do remember one situation. I was heading to the mall. Traffic was packed. To my left, was a Mom with four teenage girls -- totally excited about their upcoming shopping trip. I have no idea how she could keep her sanity in there. I was off her right rear and told myself I should move because I was in her blind spot. I didn't. My fault totally. About a hundred feet later, she moved into my lane and I had to brake to keep from getting hit. I should've moved so she could see me. I didn't. I saw the potential incident and did nothing. Again, lane positioning. See the potential incident and take action to avoid it.
And before that? ....I don't remember a close encounter.
@ST Gui's comments are spot on. This is no different than being aware of hazards on the road surface. It's just part of the experience and not a big deal.
Chris
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I have been the recipient of the #2 type on about five occasions that I am aware of. Drivers actually trying to hit me or run me off the road. One driver tried that when I had my 10 year old son on back. If I'd been armed, I would have stopped and taken my chance. I consider all of those as "attempted murder" scenarios.
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
It seems the more you ride, the greater the chances for such 'entertainment' ...
Or maybe it's because two of my ST1100s are 'Arrest Me Red' and that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull!
Another wayback tale...... A coworker had stopped his bike on a neighborhood road to talk with a mutual friend who was mowing. Bike was well off to the right of the lane. An older woman rammed the back of his bike, stopped, looked quite pleased with the result, shouted, 'hope that hurts you little sh(*!!' and drove away. Broke his hip and gave him a limp that remains with him. While the police and ambulance were still scooping him up and taking statements, the old woman was seen driving by the scene by a witness. Cop flagged her down, the front of her car was obviously freshly damaged. During questioning she claimed she played the dottering idiot, claiming she didn't know she had hit anything...'I hope I didn't hurt the poor dear'. She got off with a careless/reckless ticket.
They're out there, they come in all shapes and ages.
Yes, you are invisible, people see what they think they are going to see, they go where they look, and some just don't care and most do care. We live in a herd, we aren't an endangered species, so play self defense. Ride Safe and Adapt to Conditions.
ST Gui
240Robert
Your delivery needs work.
We're clearly talking about two different "things". I'm talking about an established pattern/common occurrence/ practice of drivers out to/trying to kill motorcyclists. You're talking about animosity towards same. I neither stated or implied there's no such "thing" as base animosity towards motorcyclists. See the difference there?...
Wow. You said a lot right there very succinctly. Well done you.
I'd want you to teach my kid how to ride.
If you were in CA.
If I were in CA.
If you were of a mind.
If I had a kid.