G7 Computers
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Andrew Shadow
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If you are referring to the code 25/26 problem you need to specifically ask them about that failure and what they do to fix it.
Every ECM repair facility that I have looked at or read about on here ends with one of two scenarios;
1- Sorry we can't fix that particular failure.
2- We disable the electronic circuit that turns on the FI light when a code 25/26 is encountered.
The code, and therefore the failure, is still there but the FI light no longer illuminates to warn you.
Neither of the above is a fix in my opinion, so you might want to check to see exactly what they do.
Every ECM repair facility that I have looked at or read about on here ends with one of two scenarios;
1- Sorry we can't fix that particular failure.
2- We disable the electronic circuit that turns on the FI light when a code 25/26 is encountered.
The code, and therefore the failure, is still there but the FI light no longer illuminates to warn you.
Neither of the above is a fix in my opinion, so you might want to check to see exactly what they do.
Exactly , Disabling the circuit that reports the problem is like putting tape over the light. But it does make you wonder if they disable the reporting circuit does it preclude it from going into Limp Mode.? I have replied to their Email asking this . why do you need this with a 2009?
Andrew Shadow
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I think that it does nothing more than hide the problem, which is worse in my opinion. Other ECM repair facilities have stated that they can't fix this particular problem or it's symptoms. The best that any of them have claimed is to be able to prevent the FI light from illuminating. I base my suspicion on this.
I don't have this problem and I don't need this repair. I simply keep abreast of this saga.
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The reason why I asked about yours is that I was at an MSTA (Motorcycle Sport Touring Assn.)(I don't
know if it is popular in Montreal)) function last year and ran across a 2008 with FI issues, and have heard about it with Goldwings. I was wondering if your 09 had issues. I watched a youtube video of a guy with a Goldwing who isolated the ECU wires to disable the reporting . Honda does not seem to be taking much of interest in this issue. If it's maintenance then one should be able to buy a replacement ECU without a Mortgage.
I read those BBS reports , but I wanted to ask a this group if anyone had tried it. They claim 54,000 ECU's fixed If the numbers really are that high there will be a complaint or two.
Our ECU's were made by Keihin. Keihin had a large manufacturing plant in Greenwood Indiana which was bought by Hiatachi Astemo. then closed. Oddly enough they made ECU's in that plant don't know if they were our ECU's I was hoping there were some ST owners in Greenwood who had first hand knowledge of Honda ECU's. I bought some books on vehicular computers they started with German and French Auto mfg and have evolved. but each Manufacturer does it their own way. so long as it conforms to ISO standards.
Ive cleaned my 5 way, re-aligned my snorkels bought new batteries changed knock sensors and wires. If you get on it you can take it to 80 MPH without FI intervention and tach as high as you want. If you ease up it goes off at 4200 RPM. I still love her though.
What they claim is not 54,000 ST ECU's or even motorcycle ECU's, just computers in general. Many auto ECU's are repairable . In some early ECU's the foil that drive a circuit melts from an shorted or over loaded circuit and they just solder in an overlay. That is not the problem with the ST.
Andrew Shadow
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So far no problem with my 2009.
This more commonly affects 2008 and older ST1300's. There have been reports of this failure on 2009 and later model years but few and far between, and they seem to be not very well documented. This may be due to changes made to the ECM that took effect in the 2009 model year or it might be a function of time, and as time progresses there will be more 2009 and later failures. Who knows?
I have read a few posts of people who have tried the Goldwing fix on the ST1300. I have not read of anyone who claimed that it was successful. I also read that the Goldwing fix either doesn't work on Goldwings or it is a temporary fix and the problem eventually resurfaces. Until such time that Honda is willing to release the technical documentation of their ECM's to repair shops we are kind of stuck if the problem is not being caused by something other than the ECM.
John Emailed me promptly stating they would repair , not disable the ECU. I may try it if I end up with an 800 lb paper weight with wheels you can tell me I told you so.
My kids used to play a Nintendo 64 where you had to pull the game cartridge out and blow on it to make the game work has anyone tried this?
My kids used to play a Nintendo 64 where you had to pull the game cartridge out and blow on it to make the game work has anyone tried this?
You know. CANBUS can be glitchy enough as it is . My GS had an issue where the brake system went on the fritz. I went round and round replacing the front and rear brake calipers , rotors and pads as well as the front and rear micro switches and was just getting ready to buy a new Brake Servo. when a Honda Mechanic pulled the back tail light cover off and found the brass bulb holder had pushed out of the circuit board . He pushed it back all was well.
I dont think I am going to find a fix like that on my ST.
CANBUS is just a communication line. It just lets all the modules on the bike to talk to each other that's all.
Andrew Shadow
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If you do go ahead make sure to report back here regarding the results. If they really can fix this problem there are many people who would like to know about it and I suspect that they will get quite a few requests to do so.
Before I would send it to them I would want to know for certain whether they are really fixing the problem or hiding it. When this problem is caused by a defective ECM there is no fault with any part of the knock sensor system. The problem is that the ECM thinks that there is a fault where there is none. I reiterate this because every other ECM repair shop that I have read about here and elsewhere to date have not been able to fix this particular problem with an ST1300 ECM. The best that any of them have been able to offer is to prevent the FI light from illuminating when the problem occurs so that you don't see the FI light. Fixing it means that if there is a true and legitimate fault detected in the knock sensor system in the future the ECM will recognize it and will illuminate the FI light and will display the correct fault code to match the defect as it was designed to do.
Well based on what I'm reading here...
If you don't try the fix and keep riding it, when a legitimate problem occurs, the bike is already in limp mode. No harm, no foul. Or is there? But you wouldn't know when a legit problem occurs.
If you try the fix and it is a fix, all is good.
If you try the fix and it just hides the light, it is still in limp mode so you still wouldn't know if a legitimate problem occurs.
If you try the fix and it hides the problem (ie. light off and no limp mode but also no knock sensing), still would not know if a legitimate problem occurred and you would be back to square one.
I don't see a down side to trying it. Unless they brick your ECM.
If you don't try the fix and keep riding it, when a legitimate problem occurs, the bike is already in limp mode. No harm, no foul. Or is there? But you wouldn't know when a legit problem occurs.
If you try the fix and it is a fix, all is good.
If you try the fix and it just hides the light, it is still in limp mode so you still wouldn't know if a legitimate problem occurs.
If you try the fix and it hides the problem (ie. light off and no limp mode but also no knock sensing), still would not know if a legitimate problem occurred and you would be back to square one.
I don't see a down side to trying it. Unless they brick your ECM.
Andrew Shadow
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The other shop that offered a similar service didn't actually fix the problem. They disabled the knock sensor circuitry's ability to illuminate the FI light, and presumably its ability to set code 25/26 as well, but the failure was still there. If this claim is accurate all other monitored system malfunctions would still alert.
Then you also saw he found the issue was due to the failure (overheating) of a signal processing chip on the ECU board. This component is no longer available; hence no real repair is possible.
All mods will have to be done via code alterations. Some have identified which code lines could be changed but so far nobody has been able to reprogram the unit (Honda seem to be using an uncommon K-line communication protocol and timing for this ECU).
Given that the ECU is not actually repairable, you may consider if you really want a code modification.
First mod would be for disabling the light, which, as you say, can be done with tape, or just ignored.
Second would be to code out the limp mode....that is not actually a limp mode as many will tell you (including me) the bike is perfectly ridable with the 25/26 code on.
This "limp" mode is actually a slight ignition retarding that provides a bit of safety margin against pinging, given that the ECU is no longer able to detect pinging and take action in case it occurs. At the cost of a slight mpg drop.
Code this out and the bike mapping will be closer to optimum but you'll lose the bit of protection the "limping" mode offers against pinging as the ECU can do no retarding anymore in case pinging occurs.
You may be better off riding it the way it is.
There is a growing pool of owners riding with the code on and no report of V4 pinging themselves to death.
If G7 can actually get you out of limping, you'd be the first to ride around with no pinging margin at all and we will follow you with interest.
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[edited] Just curious about this possibility of K line programming; and whether there's anything available that could read it. If there is, the code lines should be enough to produce charts displaying ignition timing and injector pulse widths corresponding to fault set and fault not set.
Since I have the problem with a different honda I've also followed and searched various forums in an effort to learn every option available.
I'm not satisfied that "replacing the ECU with a known good one" [a line quoted from my five thousand page 92 Honda Accord manual - all the help I ever got on that ECU] ie new, will ensure in this instance that you have a known good one. More than a few people that have replaced their ECU have had the condition reoccur. The problem there, to the extent that I can understand at least, is that Honda isn't saying that replacements with numbers ending in such and such range are manufactured after such and such date and the issue has been addressed. If that were the case, you could buy one and if the fault reoccurs know you should have looked a little harder at everything else. That's a lot of extraneous bs but brings me to the point, there's no practical solution. Buy another one. If it fails again, buy another one.
I have read that with the ST ECUs, working correctly, timing advance can be in excess of 50 degrees under some conditions. I'm satisfied more or less that the routine steps up and steps back incremental timing adjustments during these conditions.
I have to reason that this higher than normal [I'll call it] advanced-advanced timing routine will never execute anyway under any substantial load or above any substantial rpm or during acceleration; there's a curve [or curves] that produce optimum power, and that's what sells motorcycles. I also have to reason that there is a purpose for it, and I think it's NOx / emmissions reduction under conditions of TPS, deceleration MAP or various combinations that satisfy the ECU that there's no risk of rocking the piston or breaking a rod.
ST owners that have the fault very frequently indicate changes in how the bike runs and a difference in gas milage. My guess is that with the ST ECU fault set nothing what so ever in respect of timing advance during acceleration or under load changes anyway, but with the fault data point set, the fuel might be slightly enriched somehow [probably injector duration] to compensate for any risk of a too lean condition. [edit] This guess turns out to be wrong as shown in subsequent post: Failsafe Action - Ignition Retard.
Blackbird / CBR1100 owners that have the fault seem to vary a little more in their account of what they perceive happens when the fault sets. Some report a drop in gas milage, other evidence of a slightly richer running condition and some do not. In at least one instance, a dyno comparison through to near redline showing no difference between fault set and fault clear modes.
But it's all just a guess in the continuing search to locate any ignition timing / injector timing / rpm specific information.
Since I have the problem with a different honda I've also followed and searched various forums in an effort to learn every option available.
I'm not satisfied that "replacing the ECU with a known good one" [a line quoted from my five thousand page 92 Honda Accord manual - all the help I ever got on that ECU] ie new, will ensure in this instance that you have a known good one. More than a few people that have replaced their ECU have had the condition reoccur. The problem there, to the extent that I can understand at least, is that Honda isn't saying that replacements with numbers ending in such and such range are manufactured after such and such date and the issue has been addressed. If that were the case, you could buy one and if the fault reoccurs know you should have looked a little harder at everything else. That's a lot of extraneous bs but brings me to the point, there's no practical solution. Buy another one. If it fails again, buy another one.
I have read that with the ST ECUs, working correctly, timing advance can be in excess of 50 degrees under some conditions. I'm satisfied more or less that the routine steps up and steps back incremental timing adjustments during these conditions.
I have to reason that this higher than normal [I'll call it] advanced-advanced timing routine will never execute anyway under any substantial load or above any substantial rpm or during acceleration; there's a curve [or curves] that produce optimum power, and that's what sells motorcycles. I also have to reason that there is a purpose for it, and I think it's NOx / emmissions reduction under conditions of TPS, deceleration MAP or various combinations that satisfy the ECU that there's no risk of rocking the piston or breaking a rod.
ST owners that have the fault very frequently indicate changes in how the bike runs and a difference in gas milage. My guess is that with the ST ECU fault set nothing what so ever in respect of timing advance during acceleration or under load changes anyway, but with the fault data point set, the fuel might be slightly enriched somehow [probably injector duration] to compensate for any risk of a too lean condition. [edit] This guess turns out to be wrong as shown in subsequent post: Failsafe Action - Ignition Retard.
Blackbird / CBR1100 owners that have the fault seem to vary a little more in their account of what they perceive happens when the fault sets. Some report a drop in gas milage, other evidence of a slightly richer running condition and some do not. In at least one instance, a dyno comparison through to near redline showing no difference between fault set and fault clear modes.
But it's all just a guess in the continuing search to locate any ignition timing / injector timing / rpm specific information.
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Andrew Shadow
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This problem affects many Honda products beyond the ST1300. Besides several other Honda motorcycles that have this defect even some Honda water-craft have this problem. There must be a common component that Honda used in all of these systems that fails. The only saving grace for ST1300 owners is that someone might come up with a proper fix for one of these products. If that happens there exists the possibility that the same solution will be viable for all the rest of the affected Honda products including the ST1300. The problem is that so far no one seems to have figured this out on any of the Honda products.
There was a forum member back some months (maybe years) that was going to experiment with the MicroSquirt system to control the engine.
If you are reading this post, can you please give us some updates????
Rob
If you are reading this post, can you please give us some updates????
Rob
- Joined
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Well that can't be good. It's good to know though.
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