Thanks, but no confusion here.
In the wet, what would you do if the ABS is triggered ?
- Thread starter aSTerix
- Start date
SH, the very fact you are braking would mean you are trying to slow or stop, which also infers that if you remove the braking force you will then be travelling too fast for the given situation. The average reaction time for one of us is 0.7 of 1 second. If this releasing of the brakes with the intention to reapply occurs at 30 mph you will travel around 30 ft before the reapplication occurs and the reason for the ABS reaction may have not gone away.
What do you do then?
Steve stated all the way back in post 1 that he had attended a BMW course where they found out what happens when ABS activates, I'm guessing he's in the minority but he's in the minority that has actually taken the time and effort to learn the most important part of riding/driving. Any idiot can go fast and twist a throttle, it takes more practice to perform quick, safe, speed reduction.
I don't think the figures lie but some may have voted twice, but I do think there are two possible correct answers depending on the hazard. I have personally voted once.
When I first saw this poll I thought Steve had got too much time on his hands, you know, popcorn time, but it just goes to show, he's obviously very astute.
Just about everyone in the world is driving/riding a vehicle with ABS of various types yet very few have a clue what they would do when it activates. This I think is the interesting statistic.
Many drivers used to claim when they lost control of their vehicle in a bend that the steering had failed, of course it hadn't, their front wheels had locked and the vehicle went straight on.
Where the motor industry and regulatory bodies failed is that ABS was never sold as a safety feature, it was sold as a performance feature. Safety rarely sells, hence folks know bugger all about it.
Upt'North.
wjbertrand
Ventura Highway
I picked maintaining the same pressure, but I am assuming that a stop is needed. The only times I've let up on the ABS is if the rear wheel kicked in during a corner entry. Usually this happens because I've not been as smooth as I should have been downshifting. The engine braking contributes to the lighter braking pressure and activates the ABS for a cycle or two. I usually consider that to be a screw up on my part and only happens when I've misjudged a corner. Either I'm different than most but I don't buy the point that people drive or ride differently because they have ABS. I frankly never even think about it when I'm riding.
In straight line emergency braking, I've never felt the need to let up if the ABS kicks in. It's happened perhaps a dozen times over my 25 years experience with ABS bikes. Probably half of those times were my own fault, split second of inattention or misjudgement. I suspect that those who claim to have never activated their ABS are leaving a fair amount of braking force capability on the table. Practicing braking on my first ABS bike was a bit of an awakening, learning how hard I had to actually brake before it kicks in. A little practicing and you can learn to feel the traction point where the ABS will engage and even avoid engaging it. This allowed me to realize that there is a lot more available braking force than I thought. Probably true for most bikes I think this was helpful to me when riding non-ABS bikes. I'm not sure I would have explored that limit on a bike without ABS. To be clear I am not advocating any kind of routine reliance on ABS, but rather as a training tool in practice braking so you can better explore the limit to learn what it feels like. That should actually allow a person to be less dependent on ABS.
On the subject of grabbing a sudden handful of front brake, I'm not perfect and I've done it. I was commuting on the freeway (a route I'd been using for 20+ years) when I looked in my mirror or at the other lane, whatever, and when I looked back ahead all the cars were suddenly completely stopped in an very unusual spot and here I was closing at 70 MPH! I'm human and in spite of all the practice I pulled a newby and clamped the brakes in full adrenalin panic mode. What happened next was interesting. My panic level actually increased momentarily after grabbing the brakes when my mental speed-distance calculation indicated I would not stop in time because there was a lot less initial braking force than I expected. A split second or less later, still clamping the brakes, the bike began to slow dramatically to the point that my mental alarm went from red to green realizing I was indeed going to be able to stop. Hashing over why the brakes had initially felt so weak, I think what happened is I beat the forward weight transfer and with very little weight on the front, the ABS just started cycling immediately. As soon as the weight transfer began, the front tire gained massively more bite and the ABS started using that extra traction slowing the bike quite quickly. On a non-ABS bike I'm pretty sure I'd have instantly locked the front wheel, beating the weight transfer that way, gone down and probably collided with the car in front of me. It would not have been pretty at that speed. Did I loose a few feet compared to calmly matching brake application to weight transfer - probably, but it's a moot argument as I was able to maintain control and come to a controlled stop.
On the subject of changing surfaces, again on my commute, approaching a stop light after exiting the freeway, I was braking normally for a stop when I noticed the front ABS cycling. I had to press the lever a bit harder than usual to make sure I didn't run past the limit line. No panic, rather more of a that's weird reaction. I was thinking there might be something wrong with the ABS system until a put a foot down and damned near dropped the bike when my foot slipped outward. There was something incredibly slippery there and invisible in the low morning light. When I pulled away at the green (gingerly) I saw the TCS light blinking on my ST1100's dash all the way across the intersection. Another ABS save I believe.
In straight line emergency braking, I've never felt the need to let up if the ABS kicks in. It's happened perhaps a dozen times over my 25 years experience with ABS bikes. Probably half of those times were my own fault, split second of inattention or misjudgement. I suspect that those who claim to have never activated their ABS are leaving a fair amount of braking force capability on the table. Practicing braking on my first ABS bike was a bit of an awakening, learning how hard I had to actually brake before it kicks in. A little practicing and you can learn to feel the traction point where the ABS will engage and even avoid engaging it. This allowed me to realize that there is a lot more available braking force than I thought. Probably true for most bikes I think this was helpful to me when riding non-ABS bikes. I'm not sure I would have explored that limit on a bike without ABS. To be clear I am not advocating any kind of routine reliance on ABS, but rather as a training tool in practice braking so you can better explore the limit to learn what it feels like. That should actually allow a person to be less dependent on ABS.
On the subject of grabbing a sudden handful of front brake, I'm not perfect and I've done it. I was commuting on the freeway (a route I'd been using for 20+ years) when I looked in my mirror or at the other lane, whatever, and when I looked back ahead all the cars were suddenly completely stopped in an very unusual spot and here I was closing at 70 MPH! I'm human and in spite of all the practice I pulled a newby and clamped the brakes in full adrenalin panic mode. What happened next was interesting. My panic level actually increased momentarily after grabbing the brakes when my mental speed-distance calculation indicated I would not stop in time because there was a lot less initial braking force than I expected. A split second or less later, still clamping the brakes, the bike began to slow dramatically to the point that my mental alarm went from red to green realizing I was indeed going to be able to stop. Hashing over why the brakes had initially felt so weak, I think what happened is I beat the forward weight transfer and with very little weight on the front, the ABS just started cycling immediately. As soon as the weight transfer began, the front tire gained massively more bite and the ABS started using that extra traction slowing the bike quite quickly. On a non-ABS bike I'm pretty sure I'd have instantly locked the front wheel, beating the weight transfer that way, gone down and probably collided with the car in front of me. It would not have been pretty at that speed. Did I loose a few feet compared to calmly matching brake application to weight transfer - probably, but it's a moot argument as I was able to maintain control and come to a controlled stop.
On the subject of changing surfaces, again on my commute, approaching a stop light after exiting the freeway, I was braking normally for a stop when I noticed the front ABS cycling. I had to press the lever a bit harder than usual to make sure I didn't run past the limit line. No panic, rather more of a that's weird reaction. I was thinking there might be something wrong with the ABS system until a put a foot down and damned near dropped the bike when my foot slipped outward. There was something incredibly slippery there and invisible in the low morning light. When I pulled away at the green (gingerly) I saw the TCS light blinking on my ST1100's dash all the way across the intersection. Another ABS save I believe.
Last edited:
ReSTored
Site Supporter
I have a 2002 non ABS model and I practice very hard, somewhat close to panic stops at speed up to about 45 - 50 mph. Every once in a while I get a little chirp out of the front tire which to me means I'm just near or at the threshold of lockup. This said, I just can't (or won't) do this the same extent at speeds much higher than this as the consequences of a mistake could be nasty. I still practice hard stops from higher speeds, but not as aggressively. As I've mentioned before, there's no doubt that my next bike will have ABS
st11ray
2006 ST1300
My '06 is non and. The last time I remember the brakes locking up was in Corbin, Ky. I was exiting the interstate. As I came to the bottom of the ramp I could see that the light was red. I started applying the brakes. Little did I know, there was a diesel spill. It felt like I was on ice. The only thing I could do was ease up on the brakes and hope there was no traffic coming through the intersection. Luckily for me there wasn't and I slid right through it until I hit some dry pavement. I don't think it would have been much different with abs because nothing was going to stop that bike and I still kept it upright. Luck was with me that day!
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
- Messages
- 8,031
- Location
- Jacksonville
- Bike
- GL1800 R1200RT NC700
- 2025 Miles
- 006236
Good job keeping it upright and with no mention of bacon, saved or otherwise!
Like I said, if my life depended on it I'd keep the pressure on, in other situations when the bike is not bolt upright and there were other 'options' I would easy off. What I'm saying here is if there is the slightest chance of the bike sliding away from beneath me I'm not prepared to rely on ABS to save the day. If I'm wrong and its perfectly safe to be in a bend on a slippery road and heave on the brakes please correct me.
Last edited:
I will let the poll run for a while longer then will post what I experienced on the course.
I don't profess in any way to be an expert on using ABS but I think the experiences and what the instructors told me may be of value for ABS riders.
Last edited:
Bmacleod
Site Supporter
Kind of off topic, but when I read this, I thought of this fact that I read years ago
Longest continous car skid
The Guinness World Records Official site with ultimate record-breaking facts & achievements. Do you want to set a world record? Are you Officially Amazing?
www.guinnessworldrecords.com
Squeeze/Stomp, Stay, Steer.
Here are my experiences from the training course I mentioned:
There were 15 course attendees made up from a range of riders:
Desert bashers (KTM )
Track racers (amateur)
Trail riders (most had done the Himalayan trails)
Goldwing
Harley
Others
I will focus purely on the ABS braking portion of the course:
-------------------------------
We were riding K1200RS(ABS) bikes fitted with some additional sensors and a telemetry system, on an off-road paved area with sprinkler.
Everyone would accelerate to approx. 80kph (50 mph) and initiate max braking at a line and the stopping distance was measured by markers.
On the first run, about half the riders didn't trigger ABS at all. Of those that did ALL of them backed off on the braking when the ABS rumble at the lever started (as detected by the sensors and relayed over the telemetry). The braking distances were varied with no definable pattern emerging.
On the second run, everyone triggered ABS and again every rider then backed off (i.e. released pressure on the lever/pedal) when the rumble started.
The instructor then asked us all a question, “Why do you not trust your ABS?”. The answers were varied ranging from “I’ve never used it before” to “I’m not trusting my life to a computer”.
What followed was an in-depth technical explanation, the key takeaways being :
The ABS system is optimised to convert as much kinetic energy into heat as possible, basically it only releases pressure enough to keep wheel rotating and during this release; the brakes are still generating heat.
The ABS system works optimally for kinetic energy transfer if it is activated and kept activated.
Wet road friction is a variable and the ABS is tracking it accurately, the human rider (without ABS) responds to the road friction at one location and typically tends to assume that it doesn’t vary from this “set point”, especially if there are other distractions (like a looming wall or vehicle).
Then the Instructor did a demo and stopped the bike in the shortest distance compared to any of us, it looked smooth and controlled. A marker was placed at the instructor distance and we had it as a target.
Again we got on the bikes and everyone triggered the ABS and no-one got close to the instructors marker and once again the sensor readings showed that everyone had backed off on the front lever and brake pedal.
Another coffee break and discussion, again “why don’t you trust your ABS”, this time there was a lot of riders saying, “but I DO trust it”.
The instructor then explained that sub-consciously everyone was reacting to the unfamiliar rumble with fear and this was triggering the ‘easing off’.
Out came a K1200RS with stabilisers, it didn’t take much lean for the stabiliser wheels to contact. We spent a bit of time sitting on the bike, feet on pegs letting the stabiliser support the weight.
We were then told to do another braking run, this time pull as hard as possible and push the pedal as hard as possible, pull the lever back to the handlebars and the rear brake pedal to the ground.
One by one we accelerated to a lower 40kph (25 mph) and braked at the marker. Some were still backing off, but the majority were pulling and pushing to the extreme. Those who eased off had further attempts until everyone had overcome the fear and overcome the instinct to back off.
Then it was back onto the bikes without stabilisers and the 80 kph (50 mph)
The braking distances were now getting to within 10-15% of the instructor reference and the majority of us were no longer backing off.
Then we moved onto obstacle avoidance whilst ABS braking but that is a whole other topic!
My takeaway was that I felt I needed to take time on every new bike I rode and train my unconscious to ‘trust’ the ABS so that in the event I needed to use it I would fully engage it and let it do its thing i.e. when the lever starts rumbling keep pulling (the lever feels slightly different when you do this aka "pulling through the rumble").
I recently took a 2020 Goldwing out for a test ride and spent the first 20 minutes exploring the ABS in the area around the dealer, then went for a nice 2 hour ride. It has just become ingrained habit now.
As I’m getting older and my reactions are slowing down and my ability to handle lots of multiple inputs gets more challenging, I figure that the ABS is going to save my life one day, probably that will be the day I hang up my helmet and reminisce
This is just my personal experience and personal viewpoint
There were 15 course attendees made up from a range of riders:
Desert bashers (KTM )
Track racers (amateur)
Trail riders (most had done the Himalayan trails)
Goldwing
Harley
Others
I will focus purely on the ABS braking portion of the course:
-------------------------------
We were riding K1200RS(ABS) bikes fitted with some additional sensors and a telemetry system, on an off-road paved area with sprinkler.
Everyone would accelerate to approx. 80kph (50 mph) and initiate max braking at a line and the stopping distance was measured by markers.
On the first run, about half the riders didn't trigger ABS at all. Of those that did ALL of them backed off on the braking when the ABS rumble at the lever started (as detected by the sensors and relayed over the telemetry). The braking distances were varied with no definable pattern emerging.
On the second run, everyone triggered ABS and again every rider then backed off (i.e. released pressure on the lever/pedal) when the rumble started.
The instructor then asked us all a question, “Why do you not trust your ABS?”. The answers were varied ranging from “I’ve never used it before” to “I’m not trusting my life to a computer”.
What followed was an in-depth technical explanation, the key takeaways being :
The ABS system is optimised to convert as much kinetic energy into heat as possible, basically it only releases pressure enough to keep wheel rotating and during this release; the brakes are still generating heat.
The ABS system works optimally for kinetic energy transfer if it is activated and kept activated.
Wet road friction is a variable and the ABS is tracking it accurately, the human rider (without ABS) responds to the road friction at one location and typically tends to assume that it doesn’t vary from this “set point”, especially if there are other distractions (like a looming wall or vehicle).
Then the Instructor did a demo and stopped the bike in the shortest distance compared to any of us, it looked smooth and controlled. A marker was placed at the instructor distance and we had it as a target.
Again we got on the bikes and everyone triggered the ABS and no-one got close to the instructors marker and once again the sensor readings showed that everyone had backed off on the front lever and brake pedal.
Another coffee break and discussion, again “why don’t you trust your ABS”, this time there was a lot of riders saying, “but I DO trust it”.
The instructor then explained that sub-consciously everyone was reacting to the unfamiliar rumble with fear and this was triggering the ‘easing off’.
Out came a K1200RS with stabilisers, it didn’t take much lean for the stabiliser wheels to contact. We spent a bit of time sitting on the bike, feet on pegs letting the stabiliser support the weight.
We were then told to do another braking run, this time pull as hard as possible and push the pedal as hard as possible, pull the lever back to the handlebars and the rear brake pedal to the ground.
One by one we accelerated to a lower 40kph (25 mph) and braked at the marker. Some were still backing off, but the majority were pulling and pushing to the extreme. Those who eased off had further attempts until everyone had overcome the fear and overcome the instinct to back off.
Then it was back onto the bikes without stabilisers and the 80 kph (50 mph)
The braking distances were now getting to within 10-15% of the instructor reference and the majority of us were no longer backing off.
Then we moved onto obstacle avoidance whilst ABS braking but that is a whole other topic!
My takeaway was that I felt I needed to take time on every new bike I rode and train my unconscious to ‘trust’ the ABS so that in the event I needed to use it I would fully engage it and let it do its thing i.e. when the lever starts rumbling keep pulling (the lever feels slightly different when you do this aka "pulling through the rumble").
I recently took a 2020 Goldwing out for a test ride and spent the first 20 minutes exploring the ABS in the area around the dealer, then went for a nice 2 hour ride. It has just become ingrained habit now.
As I’m getting older and my reactions are slowing down and my ability to handle lots of multiple inputs gets more challenging, I figure that the ABS is going to save my life one day, probably that will be the day I hang up my helmet and reminisce
This is just my personal experience and personal viewpoint
Last edited:
Steve, if ever there was a reason for training, then this must be it.
Thanks for posting.
When you think people will pay thousands on extra kit for protection (not necessarily a bad thing) but suggest spending a bit on training and the reply will usually be that they've ridden all their lives, what do they need training for. I would also think that a lot of the riders on the course would insist their motorcycle must have ABS and be prepared to pay for it without even understanding it. People believe they will stop quicker using ABS than ordinary brakes that are non ABS but without knowing how they work they won't. You've proved it.
I think I've received as much rider/driver training as many, probably around 16 weeks in total and in turn have trained others to ride at advanced levels. It should never be underrated.
I defy anyone to go on an advanced course or a specialised course like Steve and not learn something valuable, something that would have taken a lifetime to find out, if you were lucky.
Thanks again Steve.
Upt'North.
Thanks for posting.
When you think people will pay thousands on extra kit for protection (not necessarily a bad thing) but suggest spending a bit on training and the reply will usually be that they've ridden all their lives, what do they need training for. I would also think that a lot of the riders on the course would insist their motorcycle must have ABS and be prepared to pay for it without even understanding it. People believe they will stop quicker using ABS than ordinary brakes that are non ABS but without knowing how they work they won't. You've proved it.
I think I've received as much rider/driver training as many, probably around 16 weeks in total and in turn have trained others to ride at advanced levels. It should never be underrated.
I defy anyone to go on an advanced course or a specialised course like Steve and not learn something valuable, something that would have taken a lifetime to find out, if you were lucky.
Thanks again Steve.
Upt'North.
As a follow on, I remember thinking at the end of the motorcycle ABS training how neat it would be to just have an "emergency brake switch".
I forgot all about that thought until I spent a day at Mercedes Brooklands test track driving all their cars. Turned out all the high performance cars had exactly that (ie emergency brake switch) , it was surreal to push the brake pedal quickly and then have it move all the way down under its own force, basically , if the system detects that you want an emergency stop; it gives it to you. It's is basically full on braking that activates ABS and lets it do its thing, no messing , no indecision, its the full 100%.
We practised with ABS on and off (which also switches off the emergency assist) and the difference in braking distance was staggering.
I think it was on this day that I also realsied my reactions were slowing , we were barreling around the circuit in the AMG GT gull wing at very high speeds and the instructor was saying to me as we accelerated out of the corners, did you feel the traction control kick in and save you there , I said NO which was very concerning afterwards !
I forgot all about that thought until I spent a day at Mercedes Brooklands test track driving all their cars. Turned out all the high performance cars had exactly that (ie emergency brake switch) , it was surreal to push the brake pedal quickly and then have it move all the way down under its own force, basically , if the system detects that you want an emergency stop; it gives it to you. It's is basically full on braking that activates ABS and lets it do its thing, no messing , no indecision, its the full 100%.
We practised with ABS on and off (which also switches off the emergency assist) and the difference in braking distance was staggering.
I think it was on this day that I also realsied my reactions were slowing , we were barreling around the circuit in the AMG GT gull wing at very high speeds and the instructor was saying to me as we accelerated out of the corners, did you feel the traction control kick in and save you there , I said NO which was very concerning afterwards !
Last edited:
Nope. Since I have never owned a bike with ABS and don't see one in my near future (ST13 wear out, unlikely!) I can't say what I would do if it activated. I know in my 4 wheeled vehicle I just kept the pedal pressed when it came on in snow. In rain I let off the brake once I was clear of the danger.
I have this feature on my Merc. it came on once and undoubted saved me from a nasty collision, the deceleration was impressive, tires screeching even with abs on a bone dry road. I'll never know how the vehicle behind avoided slamming into the back of my vehicle, I did not get a chance to glance in my rear view as I normally would do when braking hard. It all happened so fast when a vehicle pulled out right in front of me at an uncontrolled junction into the outside lane I was travelling duration the rush hour, damn crazy. It was the strangest sensation of the brake pedal going soft as the system kicked in.
Last edited:
Much of this discussion around what to do when emergency braking revolves around how much we practice in a parking lot before we find ourselves in a real emergency. I remember MCN describing the way their experienced test riders would determine the shortest stopping distance for bikes. They did multiple runs under ideal conditions. And sometimes dumped the bike. MOST of us encounter those emergency situations unexpectedly and our reactions are programmed by previous practice/no practice/instinct - there is not a lot of time for thinking. Very few of us have the skills to be able to react properly when a traffic situation requires an instant, e-stop, and few of us practice enough to be able to consistently do the right thing. Remember, highly trained and practiced professional drivers die in accidents too. This is not a reason to not take your bike/car to a deserted mall parking lot and practice, it is reason for MORE practice. Folks who take an 8 hour concealed carry permit course with one or two hours on the shooting range and think they are ready to carry a gun are sadly mistaken. The same goes for emergency braking practice. You probably cannot do enough. It is incumbent on us to practice using the technology on our bikes - with or w/o ABS.
Maybe a better poll would have been to ask the question, "How many hours do you practice e-stops in a parking lot every year?"
Maybe a better poll would have been to ask the question, "How many hours do you practice e-stops in a parking lot every year?"
st11ray
2006 ST1300
But, how many are willing to practice to the point of dumping your bike several times before you become well trained enough to know where that point is?
Grin, good reason to take an advanced rider course w/ say, BMW and use their bikes.