New CTX1300 Looks interesting!!!

MaxPete said:
+1 on that.

I work with the auto industry on a daily basis and one thing they don't do is continue to sell products that loose money or fail to sell products that would make money. There are of course some exceptions, but Honda, as one of the smaller companies, has always been and must continue to be pretty astute about where they put their effort.

Of course, a product that falls behind the marketplace through lack of product development will eventually loose sales appeal and I guess that's what has happened with the ST (in comparison to the FJR, Concours and the big Bimmers). Also, looking at the ST V4 16 valve engine, while it is beautiful, durable and performs great, it simply must be about the most expensive four cylinder motorcycle engine to make - and that is likely a good part of what kept retail cost high, sales low and thus that is what killed the product development budget for the bike.

Too bad really.
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It's been Honda's pattern to have long production runs on bikes like this. The ST1100 ran 12 years IIRC, the 1300 now 13 years. The product development budget for a ST1300 successor was in a 5 or 10 year plan that has now been years finished. According to Honda in 2009 the 1237cc V4 platform was to supported three bikes - Honda did release two - the VFR1200F and VFR1200X models now six and five years ago. It's my belief the recession and the shrinking market for light tourers (what we call sport tourers) prevented the fully formed but stillborn VFR1200ST from going into production and seeing the light of day.
 
dduelin said:
It's been Honda's pattern to have long production runs on bikes like this. The ST1100 ran 12 years IIRC, the 1300 now 13 years. The product development budget for a ST1300 successor was in a 5 or 10 year plan that has now been years finished. According to Honda in 2009 the 1237cc V4 platform was to supported three bikes - Honda did release two - the VFR1200F and VFR1200X models now six and five years ago. It's my belief the recession and the shrinking market for light tourers (what we call sport tourers) prevented the fully formed but stillborn VFR1200ST from going into production and seeing the light of day.
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That may very well be. In any event, they (Honda) spent little or nothing on the ST over its long production life and I guess it fell behind. In the end, I don't care - I'm delighted with my "new" 2007 and am happy to upgrade it myself where I can.
 
dduelin said:
It's been Honda's pattern to have long production runs on bikes like this. The ST1100 ran 12 years IIRC, the 1300 now 13 years. The product development budget for a ST1300 successor was in a 5 or 10 year plan that has now been years finished. According to Honda in 2009 the 1237cc V4 platform was to supported three bikes - Honda did release two - the VFR1200F and VFR1200X models now six and five years ago. It's my belief the recession and the shrinking market for light tourers (what we call sport tourers) prevented the fully formed but stillborn VFR1200ST from going into production and seeing the light of day.
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It is far from a shrinking market in Europe. With Triumph, Moto Guzzi, Ducati and BMW providing numerous versions of the same idea. Why would they bother if the market was shrinking?
Integrated luggage
Adjustable screen
Shaft drive
triumph-1200-trophy-2015-700px.jpg

Moto%20Guzzi%20Norge%201200.jpg
 
Dirtyshirt said:
It is far from a shrinking market in Europe. With Triumph, Moto Guzzi, Ducati and BMW providing numerous versions of the same idea. Why would they bother if the market was shrinking?
Integrated luggage
Adjustable screen
Shaft drive
triumph-1200-trophy-2015-700px.jpg

Moto%20Guzzi%20Norge%201200.jpg
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You don't see the forest for the trees. In the last decade the sport tourer/light tourer market has been stagnate or declining. That's a fact. That doesn't mean these bikes aren't selling in Europe and other markets just that the real growth has been in adventure tourers like the GS, Tiger/Explorer, Stelvio. Even the Pan still sells in small numbers in the UK and Europe and other markets. Honda has huge economies of scale the premium brands you mention do not have. Honda has to or wants sell tens of thousands when the small volume builders are content to sell a few thousand. Triumph - 50,000 units total global sales in 2014, BMW 115,000 units in 2014, Moto Guzzi less than Triumph. Honda - 17,000,000 units in 2014. It isn't worth the effort to shift a few thousand but to the small volume makers it's life or death.
 
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So what you are saying is, Honda does not care about what its customer wants. Instead, like apple it creates a product different from what the customer wants and tries to convince them that this is what they want instead.
 
Dirtyshirt said:
So what you are saying is, Honda does not care about what its customer wants. Instead, like apple it creates a product different from what the customer wants and tries to convince them that this is what they want instead.
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That's not what I said at all but it's not worth the time to go any further. It's only my opinion.

It is hard to argue with success in the market place though, isn't it? If Honda or Apple isn't offering you what you want the market has provided other alternatives.
 
Dirtyshirt said:
So what you are saying is, Honda does not care about what its customer wants. Instead, like apple it creates a product different from what a customer wants and tries to convince them that this is what they want instead.
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FTFY. Regardless of how you prefer to spin it both Apple and Honda have had far more successes than failures with the business model of building something some people won't want but a lot of other people will and are willing to pay good money for it.
 
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Dirtyshirt said:
It is far from a shrinking market in Europe.
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I've had a hard time finding out much about motorcycle sales in Europe. Can you point me at some figures to back that up?

With Triumph, Moto Guzzi, Ducati and BMW providing numerous versions of the same idea. Why would they bother if the market was shrinking?
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They're in it for entirely different reasons. Triumph and Guzzi are pretty much low-volume specialty houses. BMW builds just north of 100,000 units annually and Ducati produces about half that. Honda produces far more motorcycles in one week than those four brands combined produce annually. At that scale, the decisions you make about what to produce is driven more by what makes your shareholders the most money.

It's difficult to make a business case for devoting engineering and production resources to models that might sell a few thousand units a year when you've got others in the wings that will be cash cows. Honda's made no bones about where its biggest opportunities lie: small-displacement bikes that are well-engineered, reliable and inexpensive to own and operate, sold mostly into Asia. They and Yamaha are in that market up to their necks and making a killing. The closest any of the marques you mention come to dipping a toe into that segment, where large numbers of customers are clamoring for those products (and buying them), is BMW. They'll be releasing a 2016 bike called the G310R that will be built by TVS in India. I have no doubt the BMW faithful will treat that bike like the Harley faithful treated the V-Rod: "not a true BMW."

Dirtyshirt said:
So what you are saying is, Honda does not care about what its sport-touring customer wants.
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FTFY. This isn't directed at you, but I've bumped into a lot of people who have an overinflated sense of their segment's importance in the big picture because they spent a lot of money on something and are members of an Internet forum with several thousand like-minded people. This doesn't just apply to motorcycles.

Sport-touring's salad days are over, and adventure bikes are the new "in" thing.

--Mark
 
I have no online stats, I am going from UK motorcycle periodicals and RIDER POWER surveys.
You will have trouble finding specific European stats, as each country has its own statistical organisation, with different methodology.(My former career). Some quantify sales based on engine size, others by make or marque. Those with their own motorcycle manufacturing industry have one method, those who don't have the other.
 
+1 to Blrfl's note above.

In the motorcycle industry, Honda is a vast company compared to the others (in fact, as Mark said, compared all of the others combined) and so they simply have to focus their efforts on the most profitable segments of the motorcycle market. Obviously, I've never seen their books but I'd wager that they make a ton-'o-dough on the Gold Wings and its derivatives and on the relatively simple sport and off-road bikes they build and sell in large numbers, while on a complex, smaller, niche product like the ST.....not so much - particularly when everybody and his uncle got into the same game with similar bikes (ala BMW, Triumph, Yamaha, Kawasaki etc. etc.). NOTE: - I said similar - not necessarily better, but we all have our opinions on that. Couple that with (wait for it again....) what simply has to be a pretty expensive engine, compared to the in-line 4's of most of the other brands, and you have a situation where the Uncle Soichiro simply couldn't make a buck selling STs against the very capable - but cheaper to build and sell - Yamaha and Kawasaki sport-tourer bikes and he didn't have the marketing moxie to buck-up to the Bimmer and Triumph segment of the market.

Why is the ST1300 engine more expensive than say...a Yamaha FJR? Well, it is a "Vee" engine which costs more to cast and machine than an in-line 4 cylinder, plus is has two heads rather than just one; it has a chain-driven DOHC 4-valve valvetrain with 4 cams and not just two (lots of little tiny parts to make, align and assemble plus chains cost way more than the belts on the ST1100). Add to that the facts that it is liquid cooled (costs more to cast) and it has those really nice dual counter-balancer shafts down low in the block (with lots of gears, chains, bearings, tensioners and stuff) and the ST1300 engine ticks all the boxes for complicated and expensive to build. That is A LOT of hardware whirling around and going up and down and all of that costs money to machine, polish, assemble and seal so that it doesn't puke oil and coolant all over the place - and they've done an ***-kicking good job at all of that - but it simply ain't cheap.

As for the CTX1300 - yup, I like it and I think it looks cool and I'll bet its a great ride....but one might note that the NEWEST ones on the company website are 2014 models which are now just about TWO model years old and there appears to be quite a few of those left over for sale (at least in Canada - where I have seen about a dozen 2014 bikes at Honda dealers sprinkled across southern Ontario in the last 6-8 weeks). Their website (www.honda.ca) does not list a 2015 or -16 model and neither do their latest brochures. I'm not sure if the CTX1300 was offered in earlier years - but I don't think so. Anyhow, the fact that there are no mentions of a 2015 or -16 model almost certainly means that means that the bike is now discontinued and that once the existing stock is gone....its gone. Perhaps they created the CTX as a way of cashing in on the cruiser-craze while using up the final production run of those beautiful 1261cc V4 powertrains, frames and brake hardware, but the real outcome is (IMHO - and I do hope I am wrong) the end of the ST-V4 engine in production. I think that is really too bad because from all the evidence on this site, it is clear to me that the ST1100 and ST1300 have one of the quietest, most powerful, most reliable and durable and most tractable engines in motorcycling.

The point is that nearly all companies make business decisions on a business-case basis: how many of the product can they sell at what price to make the most money. Once the math for a given product stops working, they almost always stop making that product. There have been exceptions, but not too many in companies as astute as Honda has been all these years.
 
My CTX1300 specs say 1261cc on the Honda web site as well as in the official Honda service manual.
 
Looks like the CTX1300 still makes it into the EICMA show this year.

This is looks to still be the European 2014 model even though the caption in the video states 2016 CTX1300. Don't really see anything new with this one. Even the color is the same as was available in Europe in 2014.

[video=youtube_share;gl8rqHsEUqE]http://youtu.be/gl8rqHsEUqE[/video]
 
CTX1300 and 700 are no longer listed on the French Honda site. The CTX1300 is still on the UK site but, not the CTX700.

Deauville (NT700) and Pan European (ST1300) are still on the French Site. The Pan is still on the UK site but, not the Deauville.

Me thinks the CTX range is being quietly dropped in Europe.
 
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Apparently my faith is unfounded, lol

RECALL INFO
VIN:
YEAR: 2010
CATEGORY: MOTORCYCLES
SUB-CATEGORY: SPORT
MODEL: VFR1200F
NUMBER OF POTENTIAL RECALLS: 1
LAST UPDATED: DEC 28, 2015
NHTSA RECALL NUMBER: TBD
CAMPAIGN DESCRIPTION: 10-13 VFR12 PROPELLER SHAFT
MFR CAMPAIGN ID: JW2
RECALL DATE: 12/04/2015
RECALL STATUS: VIN/HIN Required
SUMMARY:
AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO., INC. (HONDA) IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2010 AND 2012-2013 VFR1200F/FD MOTORCYCLES. THE DRIVESHAFT UNIVERSAL JOINT BEARING MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PROPERLY ASSEMBLED AND, EVEN IF PROPERLY ASSEMBLED, MAY NOT HAVE SPECIFIED DURABILITY AS THE RESULT OF MANUFACTURING ERRORS.
SAFETY RISK:
IF THE UNIVERSAL JOINT SEPARATES, DRIVE FORCE WILL BE LOST; IF THE UNIVERSAL JOINT BREAKS, IT IS POSSIBLE IT MAY INTERFERE WITH THE SWING ARM AND LOCK THE REAR WHEEL WHILE RIDING. EITHER OUTCOME INCREASES THE RISK OF A CRASH.
REMEDY:
HONDA WILL NOTIFY OWNERS. AND DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE DRIVESHAFT, FREE OF CHARGE. WHILE AMERICAN HONDA EXPECTS TO RECEIVE THE FIRST SHIPMENTS OF THE REMEDY PARTS IN LATE 2015 TO EARLY 2016, CUSTOMERS WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL OF EXPERIENCING SYMPTOMS OF THE DEFECT BEFORE THE REMEDY PARTS ARE AVAILABLE CAN BRING THEIR VEHICLE TO A HONDA MOTORCYCLE DEALERSHIP FOR INSPECTION. IF THE DRIVESHAFT FAILS THE INSPECTION, THE DRIVESHAFT WILL BE REPLACED WITH A NEW PRE-COUNTERMEASURE PART, FREE OF CHARGE; THE CUSTOMER WILL BE ASKED TO RETURN TO HAVE THE DRIVESHAFT REPLACED WITH A REMEDY PART ONCE PARTS ARE AVAILABLE. ONCE PARTS ARE AVAILABLE, HONDA DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE DRIVESHAFT ON ALL AFFECTED VEHICLES WITH A REMEDY PART, FREE OF CHARGE.
 
Blrfl said:
a lot of people who have an overinflated sense of their segment's importance in the big picture because they spent a lot of money on something and are members of an Internet forum with several thousand like-minded people. This doesn't just apply to motorcycles.
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That applies to a lot of other areas with big and little players. When a new model of something comes out there's hate and discontent shouted in choruses of "What were they thinking???"

Corporate goals have to change with times and markets to stay viable. That means catering to markets with many customers who's purchases make stockholders happy. Most stockholders have no issue trading a niche market for a large one. The touring market is still lucrative for Honda. It's pretty obvious sport-touring is not.

Since Apple was also mentioned that reinforces the statement "It is hard to argue with success in the market place though, isn't it?" More customers than not must be happy. Even if sport-touring is HUGE in the UK it doesn't mean those sales make more than a ripple in Honda's pool of profits.


 
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