All about radar

Well.....most of this has been covered very well. My 15 yrs. as a Po-Po, I was certified in all devices. Remember, there are three left. Air VASCAR, timing from blocks on the roads, Pacing-which can be done quite creatively by a seasoned cop, and stopwatch TRD old-style methods. You can fight any traffic ticket, but...99.6% the Judge is going to give the Officer the benefit of doubt. AND all units have a "trigger". Again, a seasoned Officer once releasing the trigger has only .75 of a second for the reading. What is std. reaction time? That and more. ZAP-Busted!!! I've played w/the best! Radar detectors DO give early alert status when a Po-Po is in operations mode. Good luck.....
 
Not always easy to detect even with a detector. In my neck of the woods detectors are illegall. Officers in low visibilty vehicles often pull up behind a pack of cars and then switch on the radar. Who ever hits the brakes gets pulled over and cited for illegally posessing a detector. The officers with a sense of humour will sometimes let you off if you destroy the detector there on the spot.
 
Bonus question- the DSR2X can track a sixth target while moving- this isn't published anywhere in the manual- know what/how?

I am pleased your assessment matches mine- if you're the dumbass out front, you're taking it on the chin. If you're being smart(er) and are back a little ways- you have a better chance.

Rodneypieon said:
This is true as this is the set I used to operate but you would have to be superhuman to watch 5 windows at once and you can only chase one violator so you usally only use one antennea at a time.

To answer the question about brake hard or slow down gradually. With a good operator using the set properly you are toast and she/he will get you every time. A good opertor runs with the set on standby so it does not transmit any beam. They see the speeder make their estimation and turn the set on. The radar beam goes out at the speed of light hits the vehicle and returns at the speed of light and the set then calculates and displays the speed in about 1 - 3 seconds. The speeder has to first recognize the detector going off, decide what to do, and then react. Stats show us Olympic atheletes can react in under 4 secs on average, the rest of us usually taker longer. In my province we don't even have to lock your speed in to the set, but we do, our laws say we just have to see thew speed displayed and that is good enough to issue a ticket and convict.

If the radar operator is not that good you have a chance if you don't draw attention to yourself and they are unconfident with their visual estimation ability.
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Having never had the opportunity to take it to court (I was a passenger) and not being a lawyer I assume that the sudden unexplained decrease in speed could give them probable cause but I really am not sure about the legalities of it all. In the case I witnessed the detector was a portable and not concealed and the officer eyeballed it when pulling over the car. This actually happened in Ontario so maybe Rodney Pigeon could comment on the legalities as he was an officer in ON.
 
Andrew Shadow said:
Having never had the opportunity to take it to court (I was a passenger) and not being a lawyer I assume that the sudden unexplained decrease in speed could give them probable cause but I really am not sure about the legalities of it all. In the case I witnessed the detector was a portable and not concealed and the officer eyeballed it when pulling over the car. This actually happened in Ontario so maybe Rodney Pigeon could comment on the legalities as he was an officer in ON.
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In Ontario our provincial traffic law authorizes us to search anywhere in the vehicle without warrant if we have the grounds and remove it from the vehicle. The driver is responsible for any repairs and damage within reason of course. If a conviction is registered, the device is forfiet to the province and you don't get it back.
 
NorCalBusa said:
Bonus question- the DSR2X can track a sixth target while moving- this isn't published anywhere in the manual- know what/how?
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Actually any modern radar set is capable of tracking and calculating the speed of ALL vehicles within its operational range but it only displays the readings of the vehicles it is told to. So if
the set is told to display the strongest and the fastest of the vehicles coming at it and there are 10 vehicles in the beam, it calculates the speed of all ten and displays only two speeds.
 
That's right. Let me pose it differently; if you have Patrol Speed, Fastest and Strongest readings on both front and rear- how do you track a fifth target?

(I'm not doing well at posing the question, and non radar folks won't appreciate the answer as a LEO would, so I'll let the cat out on this soon)

Rodneypieon said:
Actually any modern radar set is capable of tracking and calculating the speed of ALL vehicles within its operational range but it only displays the readings of the vehicles it is told to. So if
the set is told to display the strongest and the fastest of the vehicles coming at it and there are 10 vehicles in the beam, it calculates the speed of all ten and displays only two speeds.
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This seems like a logic problem. Just for fun, with no background in this topic . . . Patrol Speed, Fastest front, Strongest front, Fastest rear and Strongest rear; that's only Five . . . right? Patrol Speed would be the same for both front and rear?

:) Shuey
 
Yes- there is one Patrol Speed display, it is determined by using the active antenna(s) and the Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) if connected.

Shuey said:
This seems like a logic problem. Just for fun, with no background in this topic . . . Patrol Speed, Fastest front, Strongest front, Fastest rear and Strongest rear; that's only Five . . . right? Patrol Speed would be the same for both front and rear?

:) Shuey
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Top left- Strongest front
Bottom left- Strongest rear
Top right- Fastest front
Bottom right- Fastest rear
Far right- Patrol Speed

stalker_dsr_2x_2.jpg


So- four targets on display, but there's a way to track a fifth target with the radar- that's the Bonus question.
 
Reaction time is important. Radar will not display the first speed it detects. It will verify that reading, and if those 2 readings are too far apart, the process is repeated. Mind you this happens very quickly, but if your reactions are cat quick, and you knock off a few MPH, it may be the difference to save you wallet. Let my forks compress. I slow down for any po po if they are parked, even when not speeding. In my state, you have to move away 1 lane or reduce 10 mph for emergency vehicles. But it would be better if traffic cops had to run lights when tracking speeders. My last speeding ticket was 1/20/1980. Had all others dismissed in court. Ask them if they can make numbers appear on the unit with no cars around and watch them start to squirm. Great thread, great tips. Be responsible, careful and respectful and make regular deposits to your karma account.
 
Good post.

They shouldn't squirm, that shows poor training or poor retention of good training-. The device should display a target speed whenever it gets a bona-fide Doppler echo. That can be a wide variety of vehicle and non-vehicle things and is nothing to hide or worry about if the IACP procedures are followed. My cop friends out here are adamant; if they aren't 100% sure of their visual estimation, they simply let the guy go and wait for the next fish. Oh, they might do a short meet & greet, but they sure aren't scratching out a ticket for speed. The thinking is why would you risk your career over a silly traffic ticket, there are plenty of speeders, so just have a little patience and they'll soon present themselves.


Kayaddict said:
Reaction time is important. Radar will not display the first speed it detects. It will verify that reading, and if those 2 readings are too far apart, the process is repeated. Mind you this happens very quickly, but if your reactions are cat quick, and you knock off a few MPH, it may be the difference to save you wallet. Let my forks compress. I slow down for any po po if they are parked, even when not speeding. In my state, you have to move away 1 lane or reduce 10 mph for emergency vehicles. But it would be better if traffic cops had to run lights when tracking speeders. My last speeding ticket was 1/20/1980. Had all others dismissed in court. Ask them if they can make numbers appear on the unit with no cars around and watch them start to squirm. Great thread, great tips. Be responsible, careful and respectful and make regular deposits to your karma account.
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"....99.6% the Judge is going to give the Officer the benefit of doubt....."

This statement illustrates the weakness in the process. It really boils down to the judge if you go to court. If he/she is of this mindset, it really doesn't matter the validity of your arguments. It has been stated that a competent radar operator can filter through all the factors affecting the reading that they see but, from what I understand, this competence is assumed if they have simply taken the training and passed. ie it is pass/ fail. Sorta like the last person in medical school class is still called Dr. Doesn't mean that this is the person you would want operating on you. I have actually asked an officer (in court) what his grade was in the training course and was told, by the judge, that it was irrelevant. Maybe irrelevant the way the system is set up, but if it only takes 80% to obtain a "pass" for the training course, it still means that 1 out of 5 situations is potentially wrong.

Another thing I have noticed on more than one occasion...... the vehicle that "looks" the fastest will get pulled over out of a pack vs the "slow" looking vehicle. eg. bright red Corvette vs everyday grey 4 dr sedan. Human nature I suppose. Lesson.... best "rabbits" are the "fast" looking ones.

Rod
 
To some extend, I agree. I think more compelling is an aware, well trained officer who truly understands the technology and can articulate their actions- consistent with proper standards. If they behave properly in the Visual Estimation and its components, prepare proper notes and testify appropriately ("how" is well established)- they should prevail. On the other hand, if they do not do all that and the defendant has- then a reasonable judge should rule if there is "reasonable doubt". We aren't in a poppy field of course, but that speaks to local citizen involvement if they have a bad sitting judge. Here, its never a real judge for traffic, some lawyer with grandiose ideals gets appointed to sit- "referee" they call 'em.

drrod said:
"....99.6% the Judge is going to give the Officer the benefit of doubt....."

This statement illustrates the weakness in the process. It really boils down to the judge if you go to court. If he/she is of this mindset, it really doesn't matter the validity of your arguments. It has been stated that a competent radar operator can filter through all the factors affecting the reading that they see but, from what I understand, this competence is assumed if they have simply taken the training and passed. ie it is pass/ fail. Sorta like the last person in medical school class is still called Dr. Doesn't mean that this is the person you would want operating on you. I have actually asked an officer (in court) what his grade was in the training course and was told, by the judge, that it was irrelevant. Maybe irrelevant the way the system is set up, but if it only takes 80% to obtain a "pass" for the training course, it still means that 1 out of 5 situations is potentially wrong.

Another thing I have noticed on more than one occasion...... the vehicle that "looks" the fastest will get pulled over out of a pack vs the "slow" looking vehicle. eg. bright red Corvette vs everyday grey 4 dr sedan. Human nature I suppose. Lesson.... best "rabbits" are the "fast" looking ones.

Rod
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We ARE still the United States of America. "Illegal Search & Seizure" is protected by the Constitution, especially when....under lock & key. Warrantless search of a compartment...that the owner "expects the Rights to Privacy" is not allowed. Most States have a "Search Incident to Arrest" for the Officers safety. (Weapons, etc.) BUT, locked compartments are safe, as that area "is not readily accessible". Officers at times, will push the envelope...but, if you know your Rights to "Illegal Search & seizure".....a department can be held liable $$$$ wise!
 
You beat me to it..... I was the International Technical Support Manager for the European Provida range of products and installed both that system with Stalker Radar and trained the Police in Sofia, Bulgaria on the use of them.... did the Provida system all over Europe as well as other places.... my ex-boss is now the sales manager for Stalker in Europe....

The Stalker could be used when mobile to doubly verify a target speed which was being calculated by the T&D system on the Provida...... you didn't need road markings, the target always set the distance between two bridges or light poles or marks on the road, the host vehicle operator set the distance over the same distance as the target.... and measured the time separately for the target, a sensor on either a shaft or off the pulses from the speed detection for the speedometer were used for speed measurement... which also gives distance by calculating pulses against time...

System calibrated over an accurately pre-measured distance for pulses per kilometre or mile....
All accompanied by video showing either Provida speed check or Stalker speed check....

You could also park up and measure speed over a distance between marks on the road, the distance between which was known and entered into the system.... no active radar, lidar or anything else required.....

Like shelling peas...... drivers would often plead innocence right up to being shown their performance on review...... and only one review was permitted before the tape was removed, marked and bagged for evidence in case it went to court.....

If there was a dispute over accuracy the PLL (phase locked loop) for the video frame rate could be used as a stopwatch for intervals down to 1/25 of a second. A frame counter was included on screen for this purpose, all in screen graphics were white on black semi-transparent backgound, you could see the picture through this, it prevented tampering.....

Far more acceptable in court, if it got that far for normal speeding....

It was also good for driving offences, as well as turning the camera into the car when the offender was in the back to record the subsequent conversation...

Bazinga!
 
Excellent- and very close. I didn't frame the question/hints worth a darn...

What I was after is by matching the target (the one in-the-way's) speed with the patrol car speed, this will stop the Doppler Shift- making that target disappear- letting the device then go look for the one you want. Good example is an 18 wheeler and a couple speeding cars- match the 18 wheelers speed and you'll get the two speeding cars in Stongest and Fastest windows.


Rodneypieon said:
You pace the fifth target using your patrol speed as the verifier
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Very interesting read ... You'll never guess what happened to me several days ago on a beautiful twisting road here in Arkansas ;-)

MTGMTT
 
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